The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Somebody needs to talk to Kerry Adams (Adams Mccall Engineering Ltd). I tried an email address I found but it bounced back and I have been unable to find another to try ... anybody?

Pete

 

It does not do the brand any good having private individuals and companies playing around with Ferrari history, whatever their past contribution has been. Not many processes, it seems, were cast in stone back in these days and I would not consider it impossible to find parts + records thought lost around Modenese factories at that time. Add Newport Pagnell and others to the list, if you may.

It is also evident (to this Ferrari owner) that there have been various experts created in all these years that may or may not be objective, particularly as the sum of pennies involved in cars and services is significant.

Which is why I admire Napolis's remarkably public efforts. I've never met the man, nor do I possess the knowledge to judge who is right and who is wrong. However, I see an incredibly meticulous effort to bring back an era that Ferrari themselves left behind in earlier days.

That to me is what Ferrari passion is all about.

 

The company is now called Kendle Adams and is based at Jody Schekters farm.

 

+1000

 

Thanks
Pete

 

Mauro Forghieri was the most competent authority for P-cars in period and is the most competent period witness today. His statement is clear and leaves no room for speculation. #0846 was scrapped, written off and had stopped to exist as a works car. The Lord gave it and The Lord took it and not even The Holy Pope, the US VIN or Ferrari's "My Garage" can resurrect it.

But anyhow, Piper #0003 is what it is: a very outstanding and very beautiful car built and restored with wonderful bits and pieces. The car has a well-documented history closely connected to Ferrari and I really hope, that this good thread can be continued now with miurasv.

 

I like your comments.I think David Piper is right up there with Forghieri in the scale of "competent authority". How about suggesting that the two get together and really have a go on the subject. So many of the so far unanswered questions could be gone into. At least their thoughts and opinions would be grounds for certain basics coming from these two remaining protagonists at the creation of the P cars. There is so much available on the subject from these two. Someone really should find the key. tongascrew

 

So you are saying it is fact that Amon was hit by a wheel in the 67 LeMan's incident?

Please factually describe how that went down?

 

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That is the topic.

The validity of testimony is based on how factual the facts actually are.

Please! stick to the topic and explain how factual that fact is.

Then take a crack at how Foghieri has misstated the wheelbase over the years.

If you can't, by all means, just post more pretty pictures!

I appreciate the fact that you have been interested in Vintage Ferrari's for a good couple months now but that doesn't make you the God of Ferrarichat. In light of that I'd also appreciate if you stopped trying to tell me what to do. Thanks!

 

The problem with Forgheri's answer is that we have only seen the answer, not the question. So we don't know what he saw, or how he was asked. All we know is that he was asked by a guy who cannot be trusted to have an unbiased opinion on 0846, as has been proven here by his multiple posts that were clearly meant as employment procurement with people who, it is no surprise, also have particularly negatively biased opinions about 0846.

 

The questions put to MF were listed, but they were removed by Fchat.

El Wayne has posted the photos shown to MF so I imagine he has had sight of the original email and the reply so hopefully he can answer your question.

Conspiracy theories wont alter the information MF supplied, next will be the claims that Steve doctored the photos.

 

How factual the information is open to cross examination as is all testimony.

The fact that areas of the testimony don't appear 100% factual, as demonstrated by the Amon story, makes it a concern in need of cross examination, thus not a conspiracy theory.

 

I saw them on FL, but not the original e-mail.

It is a fact that miurasv was trying to gain employment while posting and contributing here.

You are the one talking about doctored photos, not me.

But I do believe in the power of leading questions.

 

If anyone does not believe the information MF supplied Steve then why not just drop MF an email like PSK did and ask him to forward you a copy of Steves original email with any of the photos that were attached, and also ask for a copy of the reply MF gave back to Steve.....simples

Also ask him about the Amon wheel and the wheelbase matter at the same time if that also bothers you.

I look forward to hearing the response anyone gets

 

I know of 2 people that have made contributions to this thread that have seen the full communications. There could easily be more. I am not one of those people. But neither has raised any complaint about the information that MF responded with.

Some of you have become apostles for your messiah JG instead of critical thought. You are trying to shoot messengers instead of listening to what it being said.

 

I think it's more being a Messiah of what truly happened. If you want to label people that believe what Jim found is 0846 as being Messiah's of Jim, I think it's only fair that you extend the courtesy to those that believe Piper built the frame as being Messiah's of Piper.

I feel that various pieces of evidence are parts of the puzzle but no one piece makes the puzzle.

MF's comments are a great piece of this puzzle and am glad that they have finally come to light. I appreciate the tenacity of MiuraSV in making that possible. But I am not a Messiah of one man and feel that there is still more to this story.

If factually this is not 0846 I am on board when that is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

To be proven comes down to much more then any one testimony. It comes down to physical proof. I doubt it will ever happen but for me many experts would need to be in a room with multiple chassis exposed. 0003/0846 would need to be in that room. I also believe the Piper chassis as well as some of the Ferrari Chassis should be in the room and examined for similarity.

If it is not 0846 then one has to assume Piper had the frame built from scratch.

But then there are still unanswered questions in terms of how did Piper come up with a P3 frame when it is said that he built them in a batch of P4 frames? And sold it, in a signed document as being a P4 when it clearly is not.

If you respect historians so much then all research that can be done needs to be done in order to verify history.

Do you think the story of Amon is factual? If not, do you not think everything else in that testimony should be considered factual without vetting it out?

P.S. I have to say that I do respect Jim. First clued in to the guy from a picture. There was a guy wearing a pair of Converse and a rescued GTO. I wondered who is this guy? that must have a great interest in these cars to be in this photo. I read the name Jim Glickenhaus and later found the threads of his restorations of various cars and the tenacity of how he went after restoring the real history of those cars, to the best of his ability and resources. is something I admired, and still do. I feel he has made some of the greatest contributions to Ferrari history that any have made and in the work he has done has set a bit of a standard for how the history of Ferrari should be preserved and disclosed. I would guess that most don't have the guts or the stomach to follow suit. Whether 000346 (as I like to call it to be fair to both sides) is real or not, even when he thought it was a replica he went after restoring it as well as it could be restored, as I feel he has done with all his cars.

P.P.S. I also respect David Piper. As I have said MANY times before. Although I do not agree with what was done with 0858, there are many aspects of his life I feel, like Jim G. are quit admirable and would have been proud to live myself.

P.P.P.S. I probably respect Mauro Foghieri the most of all as for without his great creations there would be no passion to fill this debate. I am forever indebted to him for building the fire breathers that he did.

But in the end I do not believe in bowing to Idols when clarity and clarification a actual fact is the goal.

 

I believe that the ascribing 0846 to this car is the result of the process not the foregone conclusion. That makes the burden of proof on proving it is 0846. What was offered for sale and what was purchased at that time was a recreation that used an amount of parts from the assortment of "stuff" David Piper has acquired. Again, the burden is to prove why this is different from that what it was originally represented as and not the other way around.

I have been told by someone "of standing" that the letter by David Piper should not be taken at face value. Yes, it was written by Piper but the circumstances around why it occurred make the value of the statement very questionable. It is not my story so I leave to them to further disclose it should they wish.

The flying wheel story is a red herring to me. To me what does matters is the description of how Ferrari work in the shop would be different. That is not an incident in time recollection but something much more important - how they did their work as standard practice over a long duration.

IAC/PFA does have a stance on this car, as has been described to me. First is that the authenticity of the chassis is not settled. BUT even if it were proven to be 0846 then there is another problem. This car is a bitsa. It is an amalgamation of parts without continuity. Classiche may also have a problem with it since the official factory records say the car was destroyed/scrapped/whatever which means that it ceased to exist by their calculation; that point I do not have first hand knowledge of.

 

Gee whiz, let's not drive Mauro nuts. I sent the full response that was posted here that Mauro made to him and he HAS confirmed, as my screen shot of Mauro's reply showed, that he made that reply.

It's confirmed, done deal (the only question now is his memory). Unless somebody has hacked the email address it's real.

Move on guys and lets not spam him!
Pete

 

None of them will contact him Pete, thats a given as they know what the answers will be anyway. As you say its a done deal based on yours and El Waynes replies.

 

I am not saying it is 0846, but I am not convinced it isn't. I truly hope that it is but that doesn't change the fact when and if it comes to light. I am more then happy to call it 000346 till either argument is Factually proven with physical proof mixed with cross examined testimony. But to call it one or the other right now, I believe, is pre mature and counting cards before the fat lady sings.

If the letter is in question, which is originally and legally how it wass presented, as it is signed, then I would also question the word of Piper. What was represented in a signed letter is that David Piper was selling him a 1967 Ferrari P4 made with parts from similar. If you can't trust a mans signature are you not open to question his word and the word of others?

This is a complex topic with many politics in play at many levels. What is said or signed is not always what happened historically.

As I believe Napolis is open for questioning, I also believe that applies to everyone else.

I don't feel the wheel is a red herring. It shows inconsistency.

Again, what race car is not a Bitsa?

I'm not concerned with what Classiche or Cavillino thinks of the car. I am only concerned with what truly happened.

 

Forgheri's remarks are interesting, but I would be equally interested in Jim's response to them, as he has spent more time than anyone with the chassis in question.

 

Trust me, don't put too much stock in the 'flying wheel' bit to the email exchange. Probably just a translation issue.

 

I would be concerned with what Classiche have to say because they are handling a major part of Ferrari's history. I had a good look around with Christos Vlahos and I was very impressed with the record keeping and validation process. I consider that a major advantage in maintaining the correct Ferrari heritage.

Now, if these records have always said that 0846 was destroyed or discarded without taking into account Modenese pride saving stuff from skips, I would consider it almost impossible for Ferrari to change their recorded views, whoever the owner of 0846 is.