The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Certainly one of the Classiche consultants is adamant on non-certification. He was saying it didn't matter who or how high up a Ferrari person might be that could press for recognition he was never, ever going to sign off on it.

 

Which P3 ...?

 

A translation issue seems like a likely explanation.

 

Mauro corresponded with me in English, no translation issue. More like a memory issue. Note in his response to me he did say "my memories of the story".
Pete

 

Those are the correct photos, I first viewed them in 2004.

 

Setting aside the ENTIRE wheelbase/frame geometry issue, the fact that "repairs from the Targa Florio crash" are evident is far more indicative (to me) that at least "parts" of the 0846 made it into Pipers "three frame project".

The "who", the "when" and the exact reason "why" may never be known.
I don't think Piper himself has the answer, and that's no fault or judgement against him at all.

 

Could be very likely. His English does seem quite good but a translation issue does not seem an unlikely possibility.

I also have to wonder about the statements of the wheelbase when questioning overall validity of the statement, as I believe those have also have had discrepancies in the past.

All though we have seen Miura's questions we are not privy to any conversations.

The reason I bring this up is MF's statement eerily reflects Miura's beliefs. Those beliefs may be true, but I also feel that the questions don't truly disclose all of what may have been discussed and where those discussion may lead an answer.

Thus my mention of politics coming into play in the validity of an answer. Just because something is or not what it is doesn't mean testimony will come out representing the total truth.

Sometimes people hands are tied as to what they can and cannot say and do and what they are publicly allowed to acknowledge.

In the end physical proof determines factual information more then testimony.

Exactly.

I find it funny that so many people consider Piper a legend but yet are unaware of his legend. I think that if 0846 is actually 0003 it would be worth getting the history of Pipers cars and how they were built recorded as part of his legend with Ferrari.


Hopefully we will one day get to hear Napolis's thought on the new information that has come to light.

 

Any particular reason for that, or would you say it's more of a political position to take ? I say political statement but that's just my opinion.

 

IMO, the 0846 debacle was solved largely by the welder who initially found heat damage and prior repairs to the chassis as a result of the heat damage, which is of course conjectured to be as a result of the Le Mans fire, meaning what are the chances one of Piper's replica chassis suffering a fire in the identical area as the leman fire? Nil I say. Said welder was then able to identify the particular style of the prior welder. As I understand it each welder has a specific style and a good welder has no problem identifying work that is not their own as well as identify work and consistency of others work to identify when it was just one man who did the job, which it was confirmed, and not just by him, rather by period craftsmen. Had this chassis been hacked from several other chassis would be well known by a good welder. Strong evidence IMO.

 

412P chassis are P3 spec, which broadens the search. Not by much, though.

 

Hmmm, I do a lot of welding (gas, ARC and MIG) and I'm sorry I could not identify one of my welds that I had previously done if somebody just bought me a piece of metal to look at. But if I had done a repair a particular way and the repair appeared to be done that way then that would help, but not just by looking at the welds.

Anyway I've sent an email to hopefully reach Kerry Adams. Even if he answers I don't think this thread will end ... becoming like the Airplane Physics question ...
Pete

 

Political? Absolutely not. What he was saying is that even if LdM came trying to bend him to accept 0846 he would tell him to go piss off.

 

So no matter what the concrete facts are Ferrari will never acknowledge the car as being the real 0846?

Even if it was proved to be? Beyond a shadow of a doubt??

 

Contains part of the original 0846 chassis is the best you can ever get

 

I think that the discussion is very correctly steering itself from what Napolis did to whether modern processes in validating super collectable Ferraris can be aligned to the general practises of the 50s, 60s, etc.

I'm afraid that these are incompatible. The cars themselves have grown too expensive for (say) Ferrari to attempt to rule on. The precedent alone and the idea of what else may come out of the closet must be one of the worse nightmares in Classiche.

So, 0846 must be judged in this light and not as if a, say, 25k miles Daytona's service history is in question.

 

I think I know what you are saying but that has not stopped Ferrari alledgedly passing off a replica as a real car and taking the other car's owner to court. I believe this is still an on going case.

The way I believe Classiche operates if they wanted #0846 to exist again they would just build one ... of course to the rest of us it could never be #0846 but I believe logic never gets in the way of these sorts of things at Ferrari.
Pete

 

If you can clarify this viewpoint further it would be appreciated.

I think I get the jist of it but need a clearer picture.

 

Pete, I am not surprised these issues exist. it takes a very strong stomach to manage this universe of egos and facts mixed together.

I think that having a department like Classiche is an equally brave decision as Jim rebuilding 0846. Both actions are facing the same past which is partly written and partly verbal. Both face the psychologies of the past as well as the mathematics of today.

Finding a balance between the two is difficult, which is what I meant in my previous post. This is why a consistent policy of doing such things cannot exist in a cold, arithmetic way. It requires a warm look to the past and its relaxed way of doing things.

 

The P3 replica that Piper initially had built, as listed in the auction description of the car before Jim bought it.

Which was then converted to accept a P4 engine by Kerry Adams for Piper.

Its all very simple and clear cut.

People are mixing up the other pure p4 spec frames Piper also had built for other projects with the car he sold Jim which as clearly stated when it was put up for sale was based on a P3 replica initially.

When sold to Jim by Piper is had by then been updated to a P4 spec replica.

What people need to also remember is that the auction description of the car is prior to Jim buying it, so the details listed in the catalogue are untainted by any claims made since it was sold to him, and at the time it was written there had never been any claims by anyone (including Piper who built it) that it had any association at all with any original Ferrari, so its contents clearly have be be based on the true facts of its creation.

I am pretty sure if Piper thought there was even the remotest chance it was linked to an original p3/P4 like all of us, he would have capitalised on that chance, he never did because he knew how it had been born, that of a replica

 

What's sad is there are indeed acknowledged cars out there that came from less.

 

That still doesn't explain the incontrevertible fire damage repairs at the exact area where the Le Mans fire was. Jim never found this I suspect because he wasn't searching for it, rather his welder did. Unless Piper decides to chime in and advise a fire took place at that exact area and those exact areas were repaired identical as before, then it's 0846.

 

QFT



PDG

sent from Io, innermost moon of Jupiter

 

Yes.

For for MiuraSVU to write the damage off as "it's just a spanner mark" is completely unbelievable.

The auction description, in absolutely no way, describes the construction of a P3 chassis. That is an utter and complete fallacy.

It only states that Kerry Adam's assembled the components. "British specialist Kerry Adams has completed assembly of this particular car"

In his post Miura claims that the chassis was built to P4 spec not P3.

Here is a link to the post pertaining Miura's Views and the auction description....

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143064931-post7918.html

It is clear, from the frame that sits before us today, that it is of P3 construction. It is clear that it was originally built as a P3 and the P4 mounts were added later.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142997216-post6859.html

There is a question if Piper knows the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis....

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143026571-post7382.html

There is absolutely no history on the legends legend. There is no history of how long this custom built P3 ran as a P3 or was built as a P3. It seems VERY odd to go through the trouble of hand building a P3 frame to convert it to a P4 frame when there is a P4 frame hanging on your wall. How long did you use the P3 frame for that made it worth all the trouble?

People say that burden of proof only exists in proving that it is not 0846.

You can believe that, but that's not the case in a public forum. You are asking us to believe this is 0003 P3 to P4 frame and the burden of proof for that just doesn't add up.

In the end it doesn't matter who believes what as all that really needs to happen is the car needs to be enjoyed by those that enjoy it.

The fact is there are many unanswered questions out there and I suspect that there are many of us that still don't believe the story of 0003 adds up. No one has to provide burden of proof and on the other hand no one has to believe that it's one thing cause other people believe it's not. If you want a group to believe something, one way or another, all the questions need to be answered.

In Ferrari's eyes the car may be dead. But given the lack of any real knowledge of how the chassis was supposedly constructed by Piper it makes much more sense that the chassis is only dead on paper and politically by Ferrari, and that this chassis came about from repairs on the remains of 0846. It is well known that Ferrari's discards end up in their scrapyard. There is no evidence that the chassis was physically crushed. Ferrari may have written the chassis off and may not like it, but it seems much more likely that the chassis was built from the liberated remains then by Piper as there is no story exists of how he did it otherwise.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/304410-ferrari-factory-scrap-heap.html

To think that the truth of this isn't hidden in politics and ego's is completely naive IMO.

The car may not be 0846 and may be 0003. But the truth is, with all the unanswered questions, no one has looked deep enough to really know.

Maybe there is a reason for that.

 

Mauro appears to have missed the replica part, if quoted correctly.

 

It's my understanding Kerry wasn't the one who pointed out the fire damage to Jim, it was the welder in I believe Indiana who called Jim to clearly advised of the fire damage he sees that was repaired.