ABS does not belong on a 328

That's not exactly true in this case. In this version the pedal feel want ad good as the non ABS version. How interesting that is I can't comment really. But it does make a difference that's noticeable.

 

And the 308 handbrake was actually effective back when the earth was flat!

Of course, this is a 328 with ABS thread, and at the same time they invented all those hills and ruined the 308 handbrake...

 

Mine works.... even on a hill

 

Interesting, I considered removing the electric windows but decided I would be defacing the car. I find them slow and unnecessary. I would much prefer to eliminate the motors, switches and all the wiring and use a hand crank. I did remove the sound system which included four speakers and an amp. I also removed the security system. Who would steal a Ferrari without ABS?

 

Why would you BUY a car that had these items you don't want? Doesn't make any sense to me at all. If you really feel that strongly, why even consider a 328 in the first place?

As far as the ABS itself; I routinely "exercise" it and it works extremely well. I don't understand the criticism that it doesn't function well or that it doesn't "feel good." If you toss the car into a high speed turn and jam on the brakes, the ABS activates and perfectly controls the application, allowing you to continue in the turn with maximum braking power and no locking/tire chirping at all. What else do you want ABS to do?

I can't tell any difference in the ABS action, as far as pedal feel, to a non-ABS car in the normal braking mode. The only time there is any difference is when the ABS is activated and you get the pedal vibration/pulsation/buzz typical of every ABS system I have ever used.

The newest ABS systems probably weigh less, which is, of course, a good thing. If that's the case, then I can see that as an "improvement" But otherwise, the 328 ABS does exactly what ABS is supposed to do and it does it very well.

I will add this: IMO, ABS is just like any other mechanical/electrical system. I believe it should be used in order to ensure the valves in the system continue to work freely. Therefore, I think it's important to MAKE it work occasionally. Perhaps that's not really necessary but it makes me feel better doing so.

 

Just remove both completely, imagine the weight savings. No one with a GTS ever needs to roll up their windows, and a clutch pop rolling down a hill will get it started.

 

I bought the most modern car I could without driver aides. I recognize the benefits of ABS. I once came around a high speed corner to find traffic stopped. I had to slam on the brakes and was expecting to have my hands fill with a siding Navigator but the ABS kicked in and the vehicle stopped with no drama. Its great for safety, not so great for driving. When a vehicle gets out of shape and you have to control it, that's where driving begins.

My point is faster and easier isn't always better. That which is easier to do, is less satisfying to do.

 

When it fails, believe me it's not likeable. I had a Range Rover where the ABS system stopped working. It was impossible to source what the problem was and it ended up being removed.

 

Mclaren F1, no break servo and no ABS, best car I've ever driven. You don't lock up because the pedal has so much feel due to lack of a servo. I like that raw connected feel with the car. F40, no ABS also, great car! Yes all of the above would probably stop quicker with ABS and would be safer, but if you want a safe car buy a Toyota Prius, ha ha.
Todays F1 cars have no ABS, they did flirt with it briefly but you are taking away the drivers ability to exercise his/her talent by adding electronic gizmos.

I suppose ther are 2 catagories here as I see it:
1. Modern day fast/superfast cars with power assisted everything, radar auto breaking, ABS, traction control, paddle shift with auto shift up and down function, and other wet pants accessories that turn modern cars into playstation games that can easily be driven by spotty little teenagers.
2. And then there's the full on hairy chested, red blooded, tyre smoking, tail sliding, heel and toeing, left foot breaking, front wheel locking under late breaking, gets blood racing, real old school supercars that we all dreamed of as boys and now are lucky enough to own. These are the cars that racing drivers like Senna drove on the road back in the day it's part of the nostalgic dream.
And if you think I'm talking tosh then check this out, this is driving!!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k4pun6j0Fg]Ayrton Senna On board. Great Lap! - YouTube[/ame]

No semi auto gearboxes in those days, gets the blood racing just watching that doesn't it.

BUT, progress is 'progress' I guess, and modern cars are more about the ability of the car rather than the driver, the aim eventually is to remove the driver all together.

 

I agree. And that's why I see ABS as the beginning of the modern Ferrari era in terms of mechanicals. And the microswitches in the 328 cabin is the beginning of the modern Ferrari era in terms of aesthetics & ergonomics.

 

i would not pay more for a ABS car
but it is good for safety, even if one can live without it on cars driven once a weeck mostly and usually on almost empty roads for fun

i have no ABS in my countach S, no ABS in my diablo 97 adn no ABS in 308
never got a real danger with one of these in 10 years

i have ABS in all daily drivers and i could probably have lived without it and not even noticing

i am not a great driver but i am not bad at braking hard without abs
in case of need i can brake hard without blocking the tyres BUT in case of EMERGENCY stop i think an ABS would help me as most drivers. it is easy to block wheels in extreme emergency case. sometime you just stomp on the brake because of different reasons

all this said, cars with no ABS may be a bit dangerous but it makes not such a HUGE difference in choosing one old ferrari over an other to me. i would not pay a premium for a 328 ABS over a 328 without. probably i would prefer the older simpler car, as with the diablos. and i think some old ABS sistems are also not SO great and they have some faults... not talking about this specific one which i do not know

no ABS may be just a little bit more dangerous.
try any 600-1200 superbike and you would find the real danger is riding one of these things on the road at anything a bit over half the rpm limiter...

 

I am unfamiliar with a 328's ABS, but I would imagine it's a bit antiquated. In normal driving, any decent driver can out perform the ABS in a stop. I drove a Lotus Exige Cup with "race tuned" ABS, and it was bloody spectacular, but in my daily driver (Toyota), it kicks in way too soon and is mostly a PITA. On something I only drive occasionally for pleasure (especially 1989 technology), I'm not sure - perhaps the Ferrari system was decades ahead of it's time.

I acknowledge it's benefit, and it definitely saved me in my family car once (Lexus), but I think the OP was alluding to it interfering. I agree with the comment about the McLaren F1, too, which is why they built it without driver aids, but I bet Rowan Atkinson wishes it had ABS, traction control, and stability control.

 

On a well made ABS car, today, that's usually the case.

Usually.

I changed the pad compound on my '03 EVO and the ABS went from undetectable to jumping in too soon -- much like the early ABS units.
(The ABS was calibrated for the OEM compound. I put R4Ss on, because city traffic wouldn't keep the OEM pads warm enough.)

The ABS on the '88 ST-165 (Celica "AllTrac") was so obnoxious that most drivers pulled the fuse to disable it.
(It would keep interrupting the brakes to "let you steer" -- even if you were stopping in a straight line. I had to steer into a snow bank, once, to keep from sliding into an intersection, because the ABS kept interrupting the brakes on ice.)

Drivers used to know how to modulate the brakes themselves.
Modulating ABS brakes manually just doesn't work, and it takes re-training your reflexes, for those of us who pre-date the ABS cars.

And the early units, frankly, sucked. So of course people didn't like it, initially.

By now, ABS has evolved into traction control units that make modern cars handle much better.
(The EVO X has gone a step further -- it's AWC system redistributes AWD power, not just braking, and the cornering is insane.)


I often use ABS as an example of the benefit of racing.

Most new automotive technology showed up on race cars first, and the drivers getting the big bucks worked the bugs out of it on the track, before it went on production cars.

Not so with ABS.

ABS didn't get developed on the race track.
It was something to help those poor dumb drivers who don't know how to drive.
So the first units got rolled out into production cars, with the bugs not at all removed.

I'd agree that you probably don't want ABS in a 328 -- because the ABS of the '80s were terrible units.

After the fiasco of the '88 Celica brakes, I specifically wanted a 328 that *didn't* have an early era ABS.

But I like the AWC system of the 2014 EVO X.

 

Without ABS it’s necessary to progressively add brake pressure allowing the center of gravity to transfer to the front axle. As more weight transfers more brake is applied. If you jump on the brakes the fronts will lock as transfer has not taken place before applying maximum pressure. With ABS you can jump on the brakes without lockup and therefore it removes the skill of braking. I don’t view the system as dormant but invasive.

 

No matter how skilled you are, its not possible to apply different amounts of braking to each wheel, which ABS can do if needed.

Its strange how everyone who it criticising 328 ABS has never actually driven one. It is impossible to detect whether a 328 has ABS or not during normal driving. Its a very well-implemented system. Its a second-generation unit not first gen.

 

Well most people cannot drive modern cars at the limit with all the safeties, let alone without them. We aren't talking racing cars, these are street cars first.

Most racers that want that experience are into vintage racing for that reason.

I don't think a proper ABS system is intrusive at all in a modern car - you have no idea it is there until you are braking so hard it is needed. I can see how you say it is less engaging, but honestly there is so much else to enjoy that I will take the added safety and maneuverability in hard braking. You should still be smooth in your transitions to braking and there is still plenty of chance to upset the car; just not lock the brakes.

You also have to consider that most people born in the late 70s+ have likely never driven a car without ABS. So some serious re-education is required to make them safe in such a car.

The cars you mention are awesome; I have some track experience; I know I cannot drive those cars at their limit (F40; F1). Most people think they can drive fast cars just because they have been driving their whole lives. It's a dangerous situation to put someone in a fast car without safeties. It's a totally different story for a dedicated track/race car or for a more experienced racer. You also have to take into account track vs street. Knowing the braking zone, etc in a race car is a lot different than reacting to a ball that rolls out in the street.

As to your categories, I think you are missing one. There are cars that allow a nice balance of safety and video-game-intrusion. I believe I own two of them in the e92 m3 and the Scud. Both will let you get into trouble with the right settings, but still let you correct. Plus, if you want to disable everything because you have the skills - you can...except ABS of course ; )

 

You still need to be smooth at the track with ABS. If you go from 100mph plus to simply slamming the brakes, you are not going to hit the right braking zone, hit the right turn in, you may understeer, etc. - the computer will simply be doing its best to stop you as quickly as possible. So making it seem like these things eliminate the skill of braking is misleading IMO. Of course, there is a different skill required for driving a non-ABS car at the limit, but fast ABS cars hardly drive/brake themselves.

On the street, unless driving on some deserted roads, ABS should really only ever kick-in for an emergency. If ABS is kicking in during "normal" breaking then there is something wrong with the system...or with your driving ; )

 

No, this was merely the OP's silly continuation of another thread about 328 values where he expressed an opinion that he couldn't support, that the later cars have some suspension parts from a Mondials, and therefore later 328s became less performance oriented. Complete nonsense, as people that have owned and/or driven both say the later cars have a tighter sharper turn in, and less dive. I suppose since he couldn't win on that front, he has decided to spearhead the anti-328 ABS campaign. I would rather he just stuck with the basic "I prefer the look of the earlier concave wheels" opinion, at least that is simply based on opinion and makes sense.

+1,000

You would think based on some of their arguments that having ABS drastically damaged the car's performance and driving experience. In most driving situations, its not noticeable. Yes, the OP talks about how in the ABS cars one can jump on the brakes and so it removes the skill of braking. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't jump on the brakes in most normal driving situations, and in an emergency situation I'll take the added safety of ABS thanks. As for the F1 comparisons its irrelevant its not an F1 car, and most people here lack the skills of an F1 driver. In the end, there are lots of great cars without ABS, but having ABS doesn't ruin the later cars.

 

"any decent driver can outperform ABS"? Decent, as in better than any of the F1 drivers on the planet? Who might this mythical decent driver be?

You guys know that F1 used ABS for a few years in the early 90s because it made the cars faster, improved lap times, right? And that it was banned after 1993 along with traction control because it made it easier for the drivers and removed a potential skill differentiator?

F1 didn't stop using ABS because they didn't find a benefit or improvement - the technology was used because it made the cars brake better and lap faster. Nobody, but nobody, can out-threshhold brake a decent ABS system. Anyone who thinks they can is fooling themselves.

Further - everybody practices threshold braking on a track or a predictable time/location. Sure, we're great at threshold braking. Emergency and panic braking is an entirely different thing, and even most of the best trained, track-experienced amateur drivers forget their training and slam on the brakes in a true surprise emergency situation - that's where ABS really pays off and earns it's place.

Also, andyww is right on with this comment: "No matter how skilled you are, its not possible to apply different amounts of braking to each wheel, which ABS can do if needed." In wet or slippery or icy conditions, there is no driver on earth who can outbrake ABS, unless he happens to have 4 legs and be driving a car with a separate brake pedal for each wheel and can then threshold brake each wheel separately. Otherwise, you are threshold braking to the limits of the one wheel with the least amount of traction, and not using the greater traction available from the other 3 wheels.

 

Some people think that because they are in a nice sports car that it transforms them and their driving skills into that of an F1 driver. I think Jay Leno summed it up nicely, "Racecar driving is a lot like sex, all men think they are good at it."

 

Basically if people don't like the '89 328...then don't buy it, why get stress out when it's more desirable and commending a higher price? Especially when it's someone's else preference that you can't control.

To me this 328 thing is simply a hobby (never an investment) and I have many hobbies, once I got tired of working on my truck I went for mountain bike ride...Maybe it's time for someone to take a break from fchat.

As for ABS, if you believe you can be a better driver without it then don't buy it, there are plenty of 3x8's you can buy from '76 to '88 and save yourself some $$$. ABS is only made in one year and AFAIK (?), there were less 328 made in '89 compare to other years of 328 so you chance of run into one is smaller.

 

A Range Rover? Heck, nobody expects ANYTHING to work on one of those for long!

 

LOL! I am committing that one to memory. Thanks ; )

 

No kidding. I can't figure out how they still sell those toilets.

 

Ever since I rolled my Maserati at age 25, I knew I needed to learn how to drive better and ... ABS.