The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Out of curiosity, were these chassis originally brazed or welded? I have worked with a lot of tube-frame open-wheeled chassis from this era that were brazed, and a decent fire can compromise a braze.

 

Well now, as a former welder this may be a little far.


One can certainly tell a "good weld" visually by the appearance off the bat.

And some of Ferraris were certainly "ugly but effective"!!!

If there is room one could always weld an initial or code.....

 

+1 stick rod welding has a certain "look" certainly...

 

Your last sentence sums up my thoughts exactly...Cheers!

 

This has great weight with me also....it's very interesting as he states this with certainty.

But recall, Pipers frame order was after the Ferrari racing ownership of the car.
They had moved to the 312P..

The frame vendor P3 P4 was GILCO?? That supplies the street car chassis?

Did the Race Shop use them, another vendor, or fab in house in the middle of race events???

 

Only if you can see the area in one of the body panel "fitting photos" in the rebuild thread, and there are tons of them, as the NOS body went back on..

 

The Lemans fire pictures are very well known, if not on this very site now.

Car sat there for the rest of the event, I think.
Any way lots of photos.

Not sure if there are any detail shots in Jim's paper??

 

I am working on a write up of the questions on the alleged transformation of P3 to P4 in an attempt to show how it does not fit the auction description. WHATSOEVER. I have written this up before, but will one more time in reference to the latest questions. It's a lot of work so I ask that people read it this time, and question at this time so I do not have to do it again and again and again.

The jist of it is that, as far as I know, Allegretti who built the P4 mid section was not a chassis builder, he was a panel beater. In him building the P4 center section it in no way says that he modified the chassis. When they talk about Allegreti building the midsection they are talking about the aluminum work. Once again they are NOT talking about the chassis. There is nothing in the auction description that references modifying the chassis or the initial construction of it as a P3. Nothing.

I have to research this for more clarity, as the memory goes dim when having to juggle too many elephants, but... I assume that...One has to realize that the P3/P4 tails, to the best of my knowledge, are not swappable without modification to this aluminum work. Either are the P4 coupe or spyder tails. Jim had to make modifications. I believe, when going from spyder to coupe or vice versa.

My guess is that the chassis came bare and Allegretti did the aluminum work for the P4 tail. My other assumption is that when they reference the car as being a P3/4 it has absolutely nothing to do with the chassis but the body work. When P3's were modified to be 412P's such as 0854 the 1 slit noses remained (unlike the P4 2 slit nose) and the rear was modified from a P3 tail to be a P4 tail. Thus it is my belief that when the cars is referenced in the auction listing as a P3/4 it is in reference to the body not the chassis. As it was modeled after 0854. I believe they are talking about the body being P3(front) and P4 back or P3/4 as 412P's were often called back in the day. I believe the term modeled comes into play as the car utilized a fiberglass body that I believe? was pulled from 0854. Somewhere Piper states that if sold, I believe 0003/0846?, had to be available at his demand if he ever needed to make additional bodies. To me modeled has absolutely nothing to do with the construction of the chassis but rather the P3/4 body style. The body of x was literally modeled to build the fiberglass body.

I believe the reference to building the mid section comes from the chassis was delivered naked from the frame builder and Allegreti pounded the center section to accept the P4 tail.

I would love to see a picture of this car in under Piper's care when it had a P3 tail. Every picture I have ever seen is that of it in P3/4 body configuration.

Again. I still need to clarify this. I do not want to take the time to dig through the scrapheap, so if someone beats me to this please help clarify the points I have touched on above. But in the interest of it not being absolute heresay, I will dig through the pile and find where these discussions ALREADY took place. I for one am willing to trawl back through this thread if it gets to the right answer.


As far as the welds go...

They say it takes 10,000 hours to be an expert on anything. While I do agree that if you are a regular welder you may not be able to tell your weld from another persons weld as many look similar. I believe with a deep(microscopic level) inspection one weld will have different characteristics then the other due to the style developed by the welder, or his fingerprint if you will, then another welder and also the equipment, materials used, intensity of heat, set up, and type of welding employed. These may not be that discernible to the naked eye or the novice welder but I believe a man with an expert level of experience can notice traits of certain welders.

If the above is not fact, I can accept that.

What I do believe is fact is that not all welds by different welders look the same and the same welder will carry out a similar style in all of his welds. This leads me to believe that even if one person can not tell his weld from another welders weld due to very similar approach, one can tell a weld that is significantly different in style from what they would produce. This leads me to believe that the right expert is more then qualified to say this weld is different from the rest of the welds employed throughout the chassis and is thus done by different welders at different times.

I had once asked that to really dig deep one would need to know what welders were on staff at Vaccari and Bosi in 66, and what welders were on staff there in 74, if V and B is believed to be the ones that either built 0003 at that time or repaired 0846 at that time. If the welds on the majority of the chassis resembled those of the cars built in 66 and there was welder A on staff at that time, and the repaired damage resembled the 0900 frames (including if the repair tubing, believed to be of a different size of what the rest of the chassis is, matched that of the 0900 series) and welder B was working then, and there was a difference in the welds, then I think that is pretty strong physical evidence of what was done when and by whom.

You may not be able to tell one weld from your weld but you can tell a weld that you have not done if you have an expert eye. One man I believe to have this eye is Hadjuk. I believe he has the hours to be an expert and notice noticeable differences.

Quoted from the PDF. Call it heresay if it makes you happy.

"One day John Hajduk Jr., MetalKraft Noblesville,Indiana., the person who was fitting the NOS Alloy Allegretti coupe body to my car called me and said: " I was reading a book about P4s which talked about the 1967 TARGA Floria crash of 0846. You can see the result of
that crash and the repair to the original chassis tubes ." "See them? See them where?" I asked. "In your chassis. You can also see where it was modified at different times by different welders..." Another thing you could see was that the section that likely was burned/destroyed in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a different dimension and character by a different welder as well."

 

I believe there is also live footage. One member was mad at Jim for stealing his photo to prove it was 0846. Jim fired back that the photo was not that members and that it was a still from live footage. A simple Google search will provide said period photo.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/65/b8/ba/65b8baf55c9d54b0142b36115ab777c4.jpg

There is also a reverse angle of this in the PDF. These can also be found on F-chat. I believe in this thread somewhere.

I forgot where I saw th,em but I believe a better wide angle perspective of the damage can be seen in shot's where he is swapping the body's.

 

I believe Gilco was out of the Picture by 67 and the chassis were built by Vaccari and Bosi.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I also believe the continuation chassis in 74 were built by Vaccari and Bosi.

Once again correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, we are on page 420. Time to fire up the welders boys!

 

While you guys sort out the details I'll post a pic I took of Jim flying by on his way to the high banks of Daytona before the start of the 2011 Rolex 24.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Where did you get this take from?

For arguments sake I am not saying it is not a possibility that it happened this way, but I have never read this version. Obviously if you, by your own admission, were the one buying the car you’d resort to this unscrupulous act, but I have never seen anywhere that “Jim” has stated this? Has anyone else?

Either you have mis-read his statement, your memory is getting foggy, you’ve made it up completely, you are getting your facts mixed up, or I have missed it in my reading? Please clarify where you got this from?

From what I’ve read, according to Jim, he had no idea at the time. It wasn’t until John Hadjuk brought up the crash repairs that the catalyst of this inquiry was set. John told Jim, and Sal Barone relayed to Jim that he thought there may be some reasons to believe it. I am not saying someone else didn’t say this in the 420 pages this has become, but please give a reference to where Jim has ever said what you propose he has said?

Please…. Tell me exactly how certain you are? How grey is pretty certain on your factual scale? As your basis for this is based on a statement that, I believe, Jim never made?

The expert he brought with him was Alberto Pedretti. His mechanic that confirmed Hadjuk's belief later on was Sal Barone. Here is what Jim, at least, has said about the initial viewing of the car. Please note that Pedretti is not mentioned as realizing that the car had dual mounts, they were looking at a replica which had some original parts, but Alberto figured if Jim knew what he was getting that Alberto thought it was good enough to be a driver....

From the 0846 PDF:

"Back in NY I called my friend Alberto Pedretti who was the mechanic that Enzo Ferrari sent to the US to work with Luigi Chinetti and mentioned what I had seen, 0900, The Red Car, which David referred to as 0003 and a P4 chassis with nose and center section that was hanging from the ceiling. (0900a)

Alberto was pretty negative about Piper and suggested that his " P4's" were dubious at best. I explained that I understood that but the prices he was asking reflected that and that if Alberto would come to London with me and look at all of it I would appreciate it as it was probably the closest I could come to owning a P4 and David had told me that many of the parts were original and genuine and that the chassis had been built by the "original chassis maker from original 1967 P4 chassis blueprints that were given to him by Enzo Ferrari along with permission to build 0900"

Alberto came with me to London and after a bit of arguing about which one of them was at fault for losing Sebring and other races Alberto looked at all of David's cars and the original 1967 P4 chassis blueprints which David showed us. That evening Alberto told me that much of it looked original and as long as I realized what I was buying for a price it would made a fine car to drive on Sundays as I like to do."


Here are Jim’s statements from the PDF, which I hope you have read? (If not I have had to post most of it here) Pertaining to the discovery that this chassis might be 0846…..


From the 0846 PDF:

"The car and the body arrived in NY and I began by taking it completely apart. I sent the engine and gearbox to Alberto and Bob Wallace, who worked at the Ferrari Race Shop in 1961 and 1962 before working at Lamborghini, as I felt they would be the best people to inspect and rebuild them, and Sal Barone who was head of the entire restoration began stripping and de-riveting the chassis.

One day John Hajduk Jr., MetalKraft Noblesville,Indiana., the person who was fitting the NOS Alloy Allegretti coupe body to my car called me and said: " I was reading a book about P4s which talked about the 1967 TARGA Floria crash of 0846. You can see the result of that crash and the repair to the original chassis tubes ." "See them? See them where?" I asked. "In your chassis. You can also see where it was modified at different times by different welders..." Another thing you could see was that the section that likely was burned/destroyed in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a different dimension and character by a different welder as well. Sal Barone, who at the time was working for Wide World of Cars and is now working privately for me, who was overseeing the entire restoration also mentioned that be believed John was right and that he had noticed several things about my chassis which he believed showed that it was a P3 chassis that had been modified to accept a P4 motor changing the wheelbase from P3 to P4.

After thinking about what John and Sal had said and looking at the chassis for myself and thinking about what Marcell Massini had said and what Patrick Fornchamp said Tom Meade told him and what Mark Ketchum had showed me about P5, I called David and asked him what he thought about all of this and why I had found a label on the firewall of my car "P3 0846". David was silent for a moment and then replied: "Pina Farina used that number for P5." He made no further comment.

If you, as I do, after much investigation including forensic investigation, believe that the chassis remains of 0846 against huge odds and totally unbeknown to David Piper and I at the time I bought my car from him were incorporated into the chassis that I now own then you take a different view.

Did I realize this when I bought it from David? Did he realize this when he sold it to me? Of course not."

I would think that if you read the PDF you would know this from what was stated above as Hadjuk was the initial guy to point out the repairs as stated in the PDF. There are pictures in the PDF. If you are unwilling to trawl back through this thread in search of the correct information, then so am I. As stated above, look for better shots when he was flipping bodies. If Jim was still here we could request better pictures, but….

See above^^^^^^^^^

If I am at all wrong about any of this, as in these are not Jim's statements whereas yours are, or even a second statement you found by Jim that I am unaware of, please let me know. If I am not wrong, please do the homework and stop making stuff up.

 

I've never read this before. Jim's mechanic expert simply said that #0003 looked a little more correct than the others. My understanding is that the theory of it containing some of #0846's chassis did not occur until the chassis was stripped and being restored.
Pete

 

We all know how 0846 looked like after the LM incident...from the outside.

Please point me to the pics that prove that Piper 003 has repaired accident damage in the EXACT same spots as the original 0846. Obviously photos of 0846's stripped chassis from 1967 are needed.

What I learned from this thread is that 003 has some chassis tube mods/replacements in areas where 0846 had SUPPOSEDLY been damaged.

 

That's what it's all about!

 

As soon as you can show me any pics, as in ANY, near or far, inside or outside, from 1974 to 2000 where Piper's 0003 has been damaged in those areas.

At the very least, there are pics of damage in the ballpark of where the damage is on the present frame.

As for Piper there is absolutely nothing that shows even a ball park, or even a view from four towns away.

Or even a race result that states it DNF due to an accident in either area to get the ball rolling

Hey. How about, can you even find one where it was bodied as a P3 for starters? After all it was built as a P3 and converted to a P4 right?

How do you define supposedly been damaged?

What >I< learned from this thread is there is pretty much no history on Piper and his car.

No one really knows anything about their legends legend?

Recreation or not. Who doesn't want to push that pedal?

 

Jim took a man he trusted with him to examine the car, someone who knew this type of car well.

The type of person who would see two obvious separate sets of engine mounting configurations.

The type of person who would know that the only original P car chassis with such mods was 0846.

Who also no doubt knew that 0846 had been dismantled and scrapped by Ferrari and that subsequently Piper had bought up most of the factory spares.

Said expert was not a fan of Pipers work, yet Jim still bought the car?

Surely (if 0846 had never existed) he would ask Piper at that stage, why two sets of engine mounting option before buying the car?

But and this is the big but, if you thought you had found a gem in the rough then thats the last question you would ask of the seller.

Having purchased a replica, for a replica price you then start delving deeper.

Once in my ownership the first thing I would have then done was ring Piper back and say, by the way David how come this chassis has two engine mounting options? one for a P3 engine and one for a P4

That single phone call could have stopped this whole saga in its tracks, depending on the answer given by Piper.

Answer A

Has it? I never realised that, not a clue old boy.

Bingo the quest commences to establish the provenance of the chassis as being that of the original 0846

Answer B

Ah well you see I first built it to accept a P3 engine then had Kerry Adams modify the chassis to run a P4 engine I owned at the time.


Of course all hypothetical as just like everyone else commenting on this thread bar Jim, the only people that can verify how the deal went down are Jim and David, and the chap that examined the car for Jim.


Sometimes in life you get a firm notion in your head and run with things in the belief everything will fall into place along the way, a case of "build it and they will come" I am one of those people myself, I dont just talk the talk, like Jim I walk the walk, and no one can lead you from that path if your resolve is strong enough.

The problem is towards the end of that path things can begin to unravel and it becomes out of your control. Funnily enough I am in exactly that position in other matters in life outside of cars and realisation is slowly dawning on me, and that you have to start to accept the inevitable at some point, which is the basis of your resolve has its foundations in sand not rock.

 

@Vince

Ok, let me sum this up for you:

EVIDENCE that 003 has repaired accident damage / traces of said crashes EXACTLY in the same spots as the original 0846 = nada (for the time being....)

 

Cool. Let me know if you find out anything.ybe

How about in the vicinity? Somewhere in the ballpark? Maybe a shopping cart to the right door?

How about this one. The P4 frames that Piper had built.Do you think they were built to the plans that Piper had?

Do you think those frames were all built at Vaccari and Bosi?

We can start with words for now. No need to wait for pictures

And the beat goes on....

 

The facts you posted before. Are those what you read or what you want the story to be? Cause your whole perspective on that seems to be changing?

Before it was Jim said this. Now it's don't ya think this would have happened?

Like you say. Jim, Piper and Alberto Pedretti were the guys in the room. If you don't trust Jim, then someone should talk to Piper. And to be super sure maybe Alberto Pedretti needs to be added to the list.

One of two things happened.

A. They noticed it and didn't decide to say anything till they bought the car. - Seller beware.

B. They noticed it when they got home. -buyer beware. Or possibly in this case buyer belucky.

C. They saw it and mentioned it and Piper said it wasn't. But you don't believe that would happen as you stated "I hardly think at the time Jim was going to ask Piper about it and potentially let the cat out of the bag, would you? I know I would not"

If Classiche can make mistakes with cars that are with them for months, do you think it is that out of the realm of possibility that a mechanic looking at a car for a couple hours might miss some things? He was most likely looking at it for overall condition/ everythings there and halfway decent. I doubt he did a compression check and tasted the oil.

Either way, as far as Jim calling David after the fact to bring up that it might be 0846? Read. The. PDF.

"After thinking about what John and Sal had said and looking at the chassis for myself and
thinking about what Marcell Massini had said and what Patrick Fornchamp said Tom Meade
told him and what Mark Ketchum had showed me about P5, I called David and asked him
what he thought about all of this and why I had found a label on the firewall of my car "P3
0846". David was silent for a moment and then replied: "Pina Farina used that number for
P5." He made no further comment."

And where do you get that "Kerry Adams modify the chassis to run a P4 engine"

If it is from the auction description there is >absolutely nothing< in there about Kerry modifying the chassis to accept a P4 engine?

It says assembled. As in he put parts on the car. As in they listed the parts he put on the car and never mention once that he modified the chassis to accept a P4 engine.

It says that: "British specialist Kerry Adams has completed assembly of this particular car, using a five-speed Ferrari Formula 1 transaxle very similar to those used in the early P3 cars with inboard rear disc-brake mountings. Other such mechanical components as the drive shafts, suspension assemblies, steering rack-and-pinion mechanism, instrumentation etc is all original as used by Ferrari in their customer P3/4&#8217;s of 1967."

If you think it says this anywhere in the auction description please highlight where it does.

Please read El Wayne's comment about adding Spin. We should all try to keep a handle on that.

 

No mention in the conversation listed in the pdf about alternative engine mounting configurations at all with David Piper, which is the basis of the belief that the chassis of 003 is built on that of the original 0846 just a vague reference to some of the numerous anomalies in the chassis

Until David Piper provides his side of that conversation we will never know

There is also no getting away from the fact that MF says that this was not done the Ferrari way on Jims chassis either

 

What do you need the engine mountings for?

He called up and said "I think I may have 0846." In other words he called up and said "I think I have a car that is more valuable then you sold me."

It is the same thing as explaining it has two engine mountings. It just cuts to the chase. You don't have to do the math of 2 engine mounts on the right + two engine mounts on the left ='s 0846.

David denied that and didn't want to hear anymore. What do you want Jim to do? Fly to England and bang down his door?

As far as MF it definitely adds weight to the see saw. But I still don't think the whole story has been told yet.

Please give me an answer to my question above about why you think Kerry Adams modified the chassis to accept P4 engine? Is this from the auction description? I take a lot of time writing this stuff out. It is a valid point that you are missing.

He might have. But it in now way states that in the auction description.

 

Sorry but no. It means you can switch between P3 & 4 engines pretty quickly. As Piper had both types of engines at his disposal it makes far more sense that he built a car like that.

1. ask about the engine mounts
2. ask about (supposed!!) crash damage
3. get a comprehensive history on 003 - who built the chassis, when & why was it mod'ed
4. ......

What part of the "this is not 0846" & "this is not how Ferrari did the P3 -> P4 conversion" story do you think we're still lacking?

 

Paul 500:

*After thinking about it I can see a point in bringing up the mounts versus just 0846. If the mounts were brought up then Piper would have a chance to explain them. On the spot. If he didn't know there would be no answer. If he did know then Jim would have his answer. I guess it's too bad it didn't happen that way. It would be interesting to know more of the conversations they had. And when those conversations stopped.