Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Honesty doesn't know Porsche, McLaren, or Ferrari.

I'm waiting for a head-to-head from GTBoard. That's the best we'll get at this point, and it'll probably be the most revealing. The P1's race mode is irrelevant to me because it's a trump card and puts it in a different class of car. I bet they all handle pretty similarly in their hardcore street modes.

At this point in the PR fest I'd rather know which car will outrun the other two in a straight line. As Doom said--all other factors are driver and circuit dependent. The cars are too close.


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4th gear , the Porsche time was timed in front of witnesses . Including the official vln timers , sport auto were there too . The industry standard was used for distance ( you are not taking this into account for your timing ) and the " told me to slow down " was just hype . I don't believe that personally .
Leib ran out of boost on the original lap because he used the modes incorrectly he turned the knob to enable recharging but it was too late and the car was not fully optimised ( rear wing , charging ) thats some( only some ) of the reasons why they estimate a faster time .
All that pales into insignificance when you take into account that the event was timed by respected , fia approved wige solutions. Again , the same people that time the vln.

One more thing the original ( non jazzed up) vid has been reported about a million times and is all over YouTube mate .

It's a marketing jazz up , nothing more or less.

 

FYI:
"The radical hybridization of the 918 Spyder from the very outset is what made this record possible," says Dr. Frank Walliser, head of the 918 Spyder project. "The Nordschleife is and remains the toughest measure of a super sports car. Posting a time of 6:57 minutes, we have achieved a result of which the development team and everybody at Porsche can be rightly proud."

The record, which was previously held for four years, was broken during the first test drive attempt in the morning of September 4. All three drivers - former European Rally Champion Walter Röhrl, Porsche test driver Timo Kluck and Porsche factory driver Marc Lieb - were quicker than the existing record with each lap driving two different 918 Spyder, and posted several lap times of less than seven minutes. Ultimately, it was Marc Lieb who posted the absolute best time of 6:57 minutes, driving at an average speed of 111.5 mph (179.5 km/h), as measured by Wige Solutions. Marcus Schurig, editor-in-chief of the sports car magazine "Sport Auto,” was on hand as an independent observer of the record-breaking runs. The two sports cars, which both deliver an output of 887 hp (652 kW), were equipped with the optional "Weissach package" to increase driving dynamics and the standard Michelin tires developed specifically for the 918 Spyder."

 

FYI 2:

Porsche breaks Nurburgring record | EVO Magazine

 

If you are referring to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV8aNwEBPTQ
then.. well... that's an earlier attempt with a mistake at Karussell, hence ~3s slower than the record run. watch more carefully.

 

Wtdoom, I agree it's marketing hype and as I said I am not questioning the 00:06:57 time nor the probability that the earlier video is not of the record run. We both agree the claim that the driver backed off is bunk. That makes no sense at all. That claim is simply not supported by logic or the videos.

As for your suggestion the driver made a mistake in using the modes. With all due respect mate, I doubt that. There were 3 drivers and 3 cars. Lieb's car was the fastest - did all 3 drivers not know how to use the engine modes? I find that highly unlikely. If the e-system is expected to have boost left over at the end, a key strategy would have been to drain it on the final straightaway. It would have been central to achieving the best time - all 3 driver cannot all fail to follow that strategy.

And if Lieb did really use the wrong mode, then why did he simply not admit it to johnes71? Everyone's allowed to make mistakes and Lieb's performance would have been even more amazing if he had driven with the wrong engine mode.

Actually, if you watch the older video all the way like I did, you'll see the driver never touched the map switch during the entire drive AND, the battery starts to regenerate e-Boost just before the final turns to the finish, when the driver had to apply his brakes before the corner. Here are 2 frames, at 00:06:44:38 and 00:06:45:28 showing what I mean:

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In the first frame, the car is approaching one of the final corners with no e-Boost left. 0.90 seconds later, the driver starts to brake and the ERS starts working. And then about 9 seconds later, at 00:06:54:18, the e-Boost actually gives the car a boost in the final corner leading to the finish line.

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I think this proves the engine mode was in Race Hybrid in the older video which was made earlier in the morning, as the morning mist and sun's position imply. So the car was in the correct mode, in an earlier run.

The reality about the 918 and the Nordschleife is that the course is simply not suited to the car AND there is no point in switching modes before the final straightaway. You simply put the car into Race Hybrid and drive the entire course in that mode, which regenerates the boost using ERS. There's no point in using Hot Laps on the final straightaway because there is no battery power left to drain. The car is optimized for either short drag strips or race courses with consistent and intense cornering along their entire lengths.

 

Yes, you're right, I wasn't looking for mistakes. He did go wide in the middle of the Karussell and that contributed to the 3 seconds slower time.

However, the official video shows an even slower run than the earlier video with the Karussell mistake and explains why Porsche did not show a timer or the e-Boost gauge, as that would have given the game away. The Porsche video's run is about 0:07:02 showing the driver messing about with the map switch when there is clearly no point in doing so.

I should also note, the driver in the SportAuto video link posted by recaruser also fiddled with the switch at the same point on the track.

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I suspect the SportAuto driver (with no passenger) was simply trying to duplicate the official Porsche video's claimed run time.

 

Hey folks, how is everyone doing? Back from a lovely break. Getting caught up with latest of this thread.

Per comparo's and tests: Not surprised one bit. In TG test, 918 outperforms P1, not surprised. A tiny minority of us folks here have been long adamant that the 918 is faster or as fast in a straight line, and that it would match or exceed the P1 on a track. That sentiment has been met by outright incredulity and hostility at times. While it's not exactly the high road to say I T Y S, at least a small serving of crow should be served. "no way 918 is as fast, too heavy, not nearly same downforce, etc". Don't get me started on Sutts and Harris and folks of that ilk (folks that were sooooo sure, beyond overt in sentiment)

What is disappointing to me is that P1 is so knife edge. The opposite of what it was touted to be: the ultimate road and track machine for owners...ie, mere mortals. There's a difference between enjoying a lifetime of getting to know the nuances of a car, compared to twitch/frenzied/ and unforgiving. In the TG test, the very same extreme downforce, extreme suspension setup, that was hyped by fanatics and zealots is now being used as an 'excuse' of sort. "you need to get familiar" with downforce. The design was touted as beyond reproach at ANY speed, but now 'near race driver ability' is needed? That the car is THAT sensitive to input changes by the driver is not a good thing. That's at 80mph. What about at 120+ mph. What about hustling on real roads, with imperfect surface, etc?

Still a dream car to me, but clearly not as resolved product as the 918. I remember a chat way back in the day with Jim Glickenhaus (who has mysteriously vanished btw) that Porsche should not be underestimated and that in a couple of years, there will be huge surprise. Now their 'fat pig' out accelerates, out brakes, and out handles what was touted by Mac big wig Ron Dennis to be head and shoulders above "what had come before and what will follow". Bravo Porsche.

 

You are quite wrong in that assessment.

The 918 in Race mode will not drain the battery all the way, Race mode is like how the P1 operate. A portion of engine power will be diverted to charging.

The 918 will only drain the battery completely in Hot Lap mode. The earlier video you keep referring to was run in Hot Lap mode, hence the completely drained battery.

 

Bravo Mr. Scuderia980!!

And Welcome back!!

I was one of those people as well--like Glickenhaus. I wasn't a 918 fan initially perse. However, I read the articles; listened to Porsche reps, and heard the superlative reporter, driver comments, along with the performance, tech and--all things considered--the superlative design/layout, logistical commitment behind it (which so many people CLEARLY did not understand or read). So I knew it would be a good one (not including Porsche's normal/usual commitment to excellence--especially in GT--reputation). But I wasn't posting on internet forums for most of that lead up time. It was only seemingly after all the misinformation and ridicule the 918 received--by both Porsche and non Porsche fans alike-- reached an outlandish fervor on another site--the fair play (along with the balanced, engineering/techie-type mind, and "what the hell" portion)--in me, finally decided to respond. Lol

I really couldn't believe a lot of the stuff I was reading on certain sites. This was actually one of the better ones, because of people like you, Glickenhaus, WT Doom and many others (Funny thing is: Chris Harris sounds, sounded like some of those posters). Lol. And I'm not just talking about your normal trolls. You come to expect that from them. I mean sensible people, posters, current and/or prospective GT Type car owners (including Ferrari and Porsche, who you would think would know better, be more balanced and patient) were saying some of this with outright hostility and disdain towards the 918. We know some of the erroneous reasons why. Nonetheless, it was Just incredible. Lol

 

thanks, good to be back. not really blowing my horn...just having fun with folks on this thread sometimes it can get so tense...like said...at times downright hostile. I've eaten plenty of crow in the past, usually in the F1 section. Hehee. Anyhoooo... I was a big fan of P1 when concept came out. Loved the direction technology was headed. Loved the initial renders. Slowly, my excitement eroded...as familiarity set it, but mainly because of the ridiculous PR from Mac. "We're making the best car in the world' thing started to wear thin. To where I am today. Still critical of certain aspects of P1 design, but overall still a fan of the car, but can't stand the company and recycled PR (and of course the ridiculous fanboys). I think 918 was really misunderstood from get go. from conversations with those that work for Porsche and those that don't these past couple of years, I knew this car would be something to be reckoned with. As I learned about the car, I've tried to share info and details, but mostly it fell on "you're full of ..." ears. Drowned out by huge Mac and P1 shouting. I kept saying. 'this car is going to be a lot faster than you think'. Whatever, that's all in the past now.

But i've said before...Lucky lucky are the owners of any of the 3 hypercars...as any one of the 3 would be a dream to own. They represent the ultimate of what humans are capable at the moment. For myself, like you and many others here/everywhere, I like them for different reasons. Just never cared for those who would repeatedly, passionately slam one to elevate the other. Very surprised and disappointed that P1 is so 'edgy' though. Perhaps Mac will get that dialed out somehow? I think they read my mind in deciding to build P1 GTR that's what I envisioned if I won the lottery. Much like I would commission 918 RSR, LaF XX One can dream can't he?

 

Thanks S-Mario

[Though] I had to blow it up to read to read some words/portions of it. Lol.

However, I was able to read the entire scanned page. So that was good.

Not sure if you posted it above? But I liked how the writer explained the power delivery of the two vehicles, mentioning 'while the 918 is more linear and predictable in it's handling and power delivery, it's far from boring, and it's steering provides excellent feedback'.

Not sure if I said it earlier, but thanks for answering my question on the cars tested as well. Seems like a very good article altogether.

Yeah, I gotcha Scuderia980, and I hope you get all three cars one day (if you hadn't moved onto other things later)!!?? Lol

 

Interesting last paragraph of the top gear article saying that to really decide they need more time with both cars. It would seem that is exactly what they have got as 2 days ago tom ford tweeted a picture of himself in the same 918 and just an hour or two ago he tweeted a picture of himself in the p1 again. Hopefully they'll release some timed laps and better conclusions

 

Good Point/Thanks.

Hmmm. Though that may be true. It sounds like a way for British reporters to save some face with the P1. Is Tom Ford driving these cars on roads, or is he still taking them on tracks--even now? Lol

I think the longer you keep both cars on the road, you'd probably end up liking the 918 more with it's creature comforts, NA engine, open top, and practicality anyway? But maybe that's just how some people would see it (shrugs)?

And I would guess, you could improve your lap times on the 918 (with more attempts) as you could on the P1, though not as dramatically? Remember, these guys are [self confessed] not Chris Goodwin and Mark Lieb behind the wheel. Lol

Don't get me wrong. I think what they're saying is great from a car guy perspective; you don't see this often in magazine test Comparo's (they usually do what they do, then move on, right or wrong). However, if it's to eek out more performance and satisfaction with the P1 against The Artist Formerly Known As The FAT PIG PORKER 918, then that would be funny (though not surprising, especially for a British publication regarding the P1). .....Interesting.

All jokes, alleged British tilt, and mild skepticism aside; it appears like a Good Ole article/comparo REGARDING ALL 24 CARS, we all can't wait to read. Well, at least most of us (would wanna, can't wait to read). Lol

 

A little out of topic but it seems Mclaren is looking for Chinese investors after relationships with Honda have already started with the wrong foot. It seems they asked for astronomical sums in change of a chassis to offer the Japanese with which they need do some engine tests at the end of this F1 season. Well, you know, they're "Manchester United" so they are allowed to ask what they want. Isn't it, Mr Dennis?

Actually, how well did MU do this year?

 

Good work 4th Gear, it's very interesting to see that Porsche has changed their video and an explanation of all the nuances of the various e-modes and boost.

I don't really know why Porsche would change their lap video, or what their changing the video tells us, but it certainly is interesting.

Over a course as long and varied as the nurburgring, I'm sure it's always possible squeeze out a few tenths here and there adding up to a couple seconds faster... either with car setup or just another try on another day.

 

McLaren-Chery?

 

Nothing is changed. There are two videos around the net from the same day:
1. Record run of 6,57 - just checked it on the Porsche official Youtube channel and still there!
2. Another run for 7,03 with the "tachos" on the screen, published from a channel of Vbox or something, several days after the first video.

So, what is the big deal with these videos?

 

They already look similar. Down to the rims!

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/04/cheryss.jpg

 

There is none. Which is why I never bothered to respond myself.

Just a distraction to take away/help them deal with the upcoming, looming Top Gear article, that includes direct 918 and P1 comparisons (with some of the hard data, actually reprinted here already)!?

 

The big deal is the official Porsche video times out to 00:07:02 at best. As Wtdoom pointed out (and I agree with him) it's "marketing jazz up" and the driver's excuse that he was told to back off is not credible.

I'm not saying the record run is bogus, it's real, just that the video they call official is not from the record run. They don't even have a timer on their video. I timed the playback and compared playback discrepancy with the earlier non-record video.

My playbacks are accurate to within +/- 0.5 second due to rounding of the sub-second fractions. The official video is not from the record run. You can check my posting for photos showing the timings.

Oh yeah, and the e-Boost did poop out on the final straightaway, contrary to their driver's claim.

 

The 918 is a very cool car.

However, just like you, I don't like it when the factory is playing fast and easy with the facts - their official video is not of the actual record run and their driver is making a lame excuse for not achieving an even faster record time due to the lack of e-Boost. And like you, I imagine they can improve their time a bit but their apparent lack of honesty and transparency is not cool.

 

Interesting question: What are the states of the tires on both cars after a lap or two? Do you think they would wear comparably?

 

Sportauto 918 NR Supertest - 317 kmh Doettinger Hohe 7:13 lap
Mark Lieb record run - cca 290 kmh Doettinger Hohe 6:57 lap.

There is room for improvement + new Cup tires are being developed.

 

"backing off" is something not credible to anybody.
Regarding the record lap - if somebody expects something more credible than independent observers, then I don't know...