Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

one would have though that the amount of carbon used in these cars would give any engineer a good boner

 

Lets face the facts on the street awd is the best. But if you look at the highest form of motorsports I believe rwd is superior, correct. There must be a reason they don't use awd. Face it your average driver feels more confident in awd and Thats a good thing. But the best track cars are rwd and Thats a good thing. It comes down to choose your skill level. What is more rewarding to master, the awd turbo porsche or the bring your A game and get up on the wheel z06, caterham, bac, Lotus, Ferrari, gt3rs even the z/28 is showing up the turbo s. And Im sure that its the same with these 3 cars. You'll feel safe in the porsche but you'll get a more rewarding drive from the other 2 cars. And they'll take turns beating each other because of drivers skills and track layout. But 2 of them will will be just a bit more rewarding.

 

Good post.

My guess is that, Porsche increases the "wiggability (so to speak)" as you click up the steering wheel dial. Therefore "sport", and especially Race Mode, allows a certain type of play with the vehicle. No it won't be exactly like a two wheel vehicle. But you could still drift it, and/or do what you want, when you really want to.

Note: A good portion of the 918's handling dynamics, is not 4WD. It starts off with it's extremely low COG; the clever way it's internals are packaged (especially the heaviest components), combined with it's 4WS, and it's own significant aero. Sometimes we forget this.

4WD, no doubt allows the 918 Spyder to peel out of corners and turns. No argument there. However/as an example: The Cayman is a 2WD, mid engined vehicle, that handles pretty neutrally, predictably, and is usually praised for this by most (though admittingly, it's criticized by others for this aspect as well). Nonetheless, the Cayman is still considered one of the Very best handling, best sports cars on the market. And if I remember correctly, didn't the 4WD Porsche Carrera 4S win Motor Trends Best Drivers Car in 2013? Pobst thought it was the best of both worlds; fun and reassuring. He actually felt, the 2WD Cayman was too balanced (unless they didn't want too many Porsche's at the top, since another Porsche--I think the GT3-- had won the year before). I'm sure Porshe's hoping for a Motor Trend "4S" type experience?

 

So here's a good question:

How much of the P1 and 918 lap times are merely down to having 900hp and relatively light weight?

The 991 TTS did 7:24.
The orginal 12C did 7:28
The LFA did 7:14.

Nurburgring definitely makes use of power. I have a feeling that adding 300-400hp, especially to something like the LFA, would in fact make it very close to that 7:00 mark.

 

When you start getting down to 7, each second costs exponentially more HP and $$...

 

Yeah, I don't buy that line. I'm sure there is a limit, but I really don't think it's that close to 7 minutes because plenty of race cars can get their with ease and they are typically highly restricted.

With a track that is as high-speed as the NR, that power can go a long way. How much time does a 918 or P1 gain on an LFA on that 300kph+ straight? We know that 0-300 the difference is probably 20s, so surely some of that shows up on the high-speed segments.

 

just wanted to single this out and point out that all the top prototypes in the lemans series run awd.

 

Was going to comment on the same point. A properly biased awd system will almost always be an advantage. It isn't seen in F1 and other top level series because the rules don't allow it and because the low overall weights and packaging constraints in those cars don't allow it to be effectively incorporated without introducing offsetting negatives.

If technology and sanctioning body rules allowed, I'm certain F1 teams would probably incorporate tiny electric motors to selectively drive the front wheels.

 

Correct. also, one of the most wicked race cars in existence right now, including F1, etc, is the LMP Toyota TS040. Kinda funny that it is more akin to 918 than Porsche's own LMP 919 (which uses Turbo V4).

918 happens to have same basic layout as TS040, one e-motor driving front wheels, and out back an e-motor augments a naturally aspirated V8. In the Toyota, we're talking just shy of 1000hp (450hp via volts using advanced supercap technology, restricted to ~520+ hp via petrol engine). Incredible.

 

love love those wheels, technical and classic looking, while super light and strong. IMO black doesn't suit the car, as curves and lines get lost. dark metallic blue like the US press car used at COTA in Austin does look superb however.

 

Correct about being able to order Weissach car exactly as you like...with A/C, all leather, Burmeister, etc, etc.

Agree with your post. Bravo to Porsche. Seems they've built exactly what they intended to...a car that not only does the numbers, a car that showcases their current state of the art with a view toward the future, and also a car that wows its driver while being day to day drivable on most any road (something they really focused on). The P1 is exactly as advertised in that it's wicked fast, visceral, focused and raw. A car with a different standard for NVH compared with 918. However, I don't think the 'frenzied' steering and edgy on limit behavior of P1 (combo of chassis setup/design, and aero) that TG test described was part of the design brief. And it is now confirmed that Mac has not met their brief to give owners a machine unquestionably faster than anything else on road and track. Does that make the car less exotic, or any less desirable? Not really. It just adds to the loopy Mac PR and company attitude ongoing (the bold claims, the ducking, not forthcoming with info, and things like "it's not representative of what our car can do"). And it's forcing cultists to dig really really deep for reasons or explanations.

there are those grasping at straws indeed.

 

We've seriously gotten to the point of "wizardry, etc, etc, don't add up to much difference", and basically bashing the ability to do "only" 6:57? Seriously? My goodness. Marginalizing 918 capabilities to make it less special somehow? Very indicative of bias and disliking the 918 and a relative ignorance. Your sentiment reflects personal belief and nowhere near reality. These are road cars. To opine that it is not an impressive achievement because it's only a "paltry dozen" seconds faster than a 700hp Nissan (which itself is fantastically engineered machine and wickedly capable)...you clearly don't fully appreciate the difficulty involved and the challenges engineers face with road cars running on street tires. And that's not 'just my opinion'. The NS is not about having more Hp = automatically faster track time. Speed, stability and grip going into, mid corner, and corner exit plays a huge part. Dealing with the bumpiness with a great suspension setup and compliance is not easy. But how about having 100 more HP, 400lbs lighter, much more downforce and actually being SLOWER, in the case of Enzo vs LFA? Does it make LFA impressive? Yes. Does that make the Enzo junk? Of course not. BTW, 918 Weissach is not necessarily without leather, glove box, etc.

for reference: VLN GT3 race cars, ~3000lbs, 550hp, race slicks, race aero, VMAX ~185 Dottinghohe...NS times 6:30-6:40s

Zonda R, 2,600lbs, 750hp, slicks, 2000lbs of downforce, NS 6:47s

918 Weissach, 3,650lbs, with in development New generation Pilot Cup DOT approved 'track' tire, NS time est. in between 6:40-6:50s.

 

So you believe that the 918 can go faster than the Zonda R (on slicks) and P1 on Trofeo R's (which were the tires it did its lap time on) can't go (at least) as fast as the current 918 time.

 

You mean the series that has 3 manufacturers, 2 from the same corporation. High tech sure, but the Tudor series is better racing with major manufacturers participating. They're getting 900hp from Ohv engines in nascar with limits tech so 1000 with a Super cap isnt too impressive. I watched LeMans and to tell you the truth the top class is boring. They never raced each other. It was all about which car didn't break down as much. Maybe you like all that tech but it doesnt mean there the best cars out there. Hi

 

I was simply adding to what he was saying, in response to your post about AWD in racing, and claiming that RWD is 'superior'. Does NASCAR 900hp engines run races for 24hrs? or at least 12hrs? Don't think so. BTW, that near 1000hp in the Toyota is simply due to engine restriction. the NA 3.8L V8 makes close to 700hp, but restricted to 'only' 500+. Pretty dang impressive regardless of how you look at it. A power unit system making near 1000hp and racing it for 24hrs. How can you scoff at that?

 

A 2600lb Zonda R with much more hp and equal downforce also running slicks, can't get anywhere near a VLN BMW Z4 GT3, 550hp max, slicks, 2000lb downforce and only vmax at 180+ down long straight. How do we explain that? Answer is a much more specialized chassis/suspension system that suits the track much better. P4/5C gained 15+ seconds simply when switched from 'high end' industry standard race damper and springs to a Ring specific design.

I think Porsche clearly believes so, and will set out to confirm it. As much as you and Mac's most rabid supporters would hate it. Boggle on. As is now, with current low rolling resistance standard tires, They know they have a few seconds in hand vs 6:57s, as that lap was not mistake free and a revised power strategy and active aero will be active next time around (it was not during record run). Lets say a 6:55s perfect and optimized lap with current tires. Cup tires currently being developed should get them under 6:50s, and they are very very confident of that. The last GT2 cut 10.5 seconds from its NS time after it switched from standard tires to the last generation Cup DOT legal track tire, and a result easily beat Carrera GT time. Remember when 'experts', and folks like yourself were adamant that 918 would run AT BEST 7:05-7:10? And that was based on Porsche's quick and loose 'joe schmoe' running that infamous 7:14 back in the day. Remember when there was no doubt 918 would be slower than P1 in a straight line and it wouldn't be able to keep up with P1 on ANY track? The world is a crazy place. And things are about to get even harder to digest for certain folks.

 

Please stop generalising, because I've always believed that 918 was going to break the 7:00 mark. Not sure if I've mentioned it on this forum, but I've told people on many occasions not to underestimate Porsche. Though you certainly weren't paying enough attention.

It's true that I'm a McLaren fan, but I've always liked Porsche too.

 

Hey S-Mario.

You should post those track numbers from TG test here, as you did on another (unless the article is imminent).

 

I agree.

Not sure the P1's NVH (that makes some say it now "feels faster than it is" because of this) was done on purpose either. I'll just leave it at that, not to start an internet war (which I see could be brewing above). Plus, I don't want to have Doom taking way my Sex Rations. Lol

[Speaking about NVH] I think what gets lost: The 918 is a dual vehicle. It's both a Spyder and a hard top. So Porsche made the vehicle sturdy enough to reduce cowl shake (along with the overall linear precision, calibration and cohesiveness of it's power delivery, handling and braking as opposed to the P1's, from what we're hearing) driving in either option.

So I'm sure the 918 will ride one way with the top on. But I'm sure it'll be even more exciting, thrilling, visceral, noise inducing with the top off. So Porsche could afford to make the 918 more "grown up" with the top on, as you get that other experience with the top off (and I'm not talking about cowl shake and shudders). It's make the car (and the noises it makes) more versatile.

Did you see the track times (from the Top Gear article), minus the P1 and 918?? They did have a 918 E-Mode time though (none for the P1, which probably couldn't finish the 2.5 mile track in that mode)? Jaguar F-Type R, Cayman GTS, Porsche 911 Turbo S, and McLaren 650 times were interesting as well. .

 

Here are the TG times in Spain, taken from another site, and maybe from F'Chats own S-Mario:

Caterham 160 - 2:21.4
918 E Mode - 2:19.7
Audi S1 - no set (problems with the car)
Seat Leon Cupra - 2:06.7
VW Golf R - 2:06.8
BMW M235i - 2:07.9
BMW M4 - 2:01.9
Covertte C7 - 1:59.1
Jag F-Type R - 2:02.5
Cayman GTS - 2:02.3
Bentley Conti GT W12 Speed - 2:08.4
991 Turbo S -1:55.0
McLaren 650S - 1:54.5

McLaren P1 & 918 - not revealed but more than 4 seconds faster than every other vehicle.

End: Ok, that's what was posted. I thought there were 16-24 cars (though I didn't count)?

Here are the Posters excerpted comments:

"Having read the article, equally as fast as far as lap times are concerned (though they did not reveal these (for the P1 & 918 only), hinting that these may have been in the 1:50 - 1:49 mins range on that track). They had spent 2 days at said track and then 3 days clocking up 1,000 miles with these two cars (and 14 others) on normal roads around Spain & Andorra, hence the title 'Speed Week' of the article, so that team had much more time with these two vehicles than the initial 'first drive' reviews. I hope I have answered your query."

 

A quote/question from a poster, and response from the OP from that other site regarding the upcoming Top Gear Speed Week and test track in Spain (and what about Dunsfold):

Q) To be honest i was expecting a little more. It's possible they didn't know the track that well.
In the same track Bws S 1000 la p 1.48, and hit 153.

A) It is indeed possible, as this circuit, opened only in 2009, is better known to the 'biking fraternity' as your quoted lap time shows. I reckon it was selected as dry weather could be guaranteed. This is most likely the reason (not in the article, though the lap times table is subtitled: "It's not quite Dunsfold but...") why TG wanted to follow this up with Dunsfold lap times, but only Porsche provided the 918, McLaren seemed to have been unwilling to provide the P1 once more.

I'll reprint the quote above, in case anyone thought is was mine (though I think he had posted this here before). It wasn't. It was the OP that gave us the info:

"Having read the article, equally as fast as far as lap times are concerned (though they did not reveal these (for the P1 & 918 only), hinting that these may have been in the 1:50 - 1:49 mins range on that track). They had spent 2 days at said track and then 3 days clocking up 1,000 miles with these two cars (and 14 others) on normal roads around Spain & Andorra, hence the title 'Speed Week' of the article, so that team had much more time with these two vehicles than the initial 'first drive' reviews. I hope I have answered your query."

 

I think any of these cars could have a removable top if they wanted them to be and without much effect on performance. I'm pretty sure the LF and P1 are coupes merely based on design decisions.

It's a nice sales differentiator and no doubt attracted some sales, but I think coupe designs have always been better by a mile. Even though targas are better looking than convertibles, they still just don't quite hit the mark and flow like a coupe.

This was my problem with the CGT. It's just ugly with the top on. Then again, even with the top off it was far from exciting looking IMO.

Targa is also a pain in the ass. No way I'd leave a 918 out of sight with the top off and as such it would mean always having to manually put it on. Maybe not the hardest thing in the world to do, but annoying if you just want to run some errands on a sunny day and have to put the top back on every time you run into a store or grab a bite to eat.

 

I don't think those that find the Carrera GT unattractive (or even those that found it attractive, but had niggles about it's appearance), felt it was because it was a Targa/Spyder. It was because, Porsche chose not to incorporate a sloping rear window or C Pillar. So instead, it appeared as if a Meteor crashed onto the back of the car, with that sudden Waterfall-like drop off. Nonetheless, I think more find it beautiful than "meh", unattractive or ugly (though I know you didn't like its looks and many Porsche's it appears). Of course looks are subjective.

I think the 918 also looks fine with the top on. Certainly much better than the CGT (if you want to get into balanced profiles, silhouettes any way). Except with the contrasting unpainted carbon fiber panels on, you can't really tell, it doesn't really stand out.

A lot of car makers are loathe to make Spyders and convertibles in their Halo performance vehicles, cause they feel they'll lose that bit of performance (weight, aerodynamics, etc.); it'll have cowl shake, or they have to spend more money making a super rigid chassis to overcome those things. This is why (as you know) the Porsche came out with the Cayman after the Boxter, though no one was complaining about the Boxters handling. The Cayman is supposed to be the better performer, and it is.

Let's face it. The fact the CGT and 918 spyder perform the way they do, and have open tops, is a big enough deal, unless I'm mistaken.

Some of the other stuff you mentioned, were personal, though I can certainly understand them. Lol

 

No cowl shake in the 12C convertible and performance is just about identical. I haven't heard of any issues with the Aventador either. I'm sure the LF and P1 would be totally fine without a top being they also use CF tubs/monocoque/whatever they are called.

 

Gotcha

I didn't say it couldn't be done (remember, I said "spend the money to overcome it").

I just said, most manufacturer's are loathe to do it in Halo cars, not wanting to give up any bit, ounce of performance. This is why we almost always see the hard top first, then the assorted Targa's, Spyders and convertibles. Manufacturer's, usually want to establish that early benchmark.

Of course, the MP4-12 C has a very rigid Carbon fiber chassis to do execute this. However, from what I remember, even that car had to have some aerodynamic tweaks to make it perform like the coupe--which it probably doesn't, exactly (though it was supposed to be designed from the offset with a convertible in mind, being strong enough, I wonder what machine testing would reveal)? It also weighs 88 lbs more. And though McLaren says "the performance is near identical"; on a track those numbers can add up (even though it's a great convertible). I'm sure some of our McLaren fans can chime in.

Nonetheless, point well taken. Mine was: Porsche is so confident in it's engineering, it will make a Halo car to compete against other manufacturer's Halo cars, and not care that it's a Targa, Spyder (whatever you wanna call it) from the Get Go. I like that attitude/approach. Of course it helps, makes more sense when Carbon Fiber is involved. Now back to those TG track numbers. Lol