Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

Interesting to note, that 40% of 2014 Corvette buyers purchased the 7 speed manual transmission.

40 Percent Of 2014 Corvette Stingray's Ordered With Manual | GM Authority

 

Another vote for three pedals. I have zero interest in any new car thats flappy paddle only. At least its stopping me from lusting after any new cars and blowing through more money.

 

Corvettes are still attainable for the less affluent. Younger guys tend to have less disposable income than older guys. Young guys want the manual. Old guys always buy autos. Ive seen it first hand with people in my office that own tr new stingray. Younger people all have manuals and the older guys have autos.

 

This is a poor information.

Yes, 40% of the people who ORDERED the cars direct from the factory wanted a manual. However, dealers ordered their cars with manuals more like 10% of the time -- or less.

If you want a manual, the best way to get one is to order one custom because they are not easily found in wide varieties on dealer lots.

Chevy's own estimates will be that less than 20% will end up with the manual when production ends. The C7 auto option costs $1400 more than standard manuals. So, 80% of the people buying Corvettes would pay $1400 more for the privilege of the car shifting for them.

Chevy has a new automatic 8 speed coming in 2015 for the C7 which acts very much like a DCT with similar gear changing. Chevy's own research shows that over half of the people who bought a manual would buy a DCT but not an old fashion autobox if given the choice.

This information is direct from Chevy at their annual BASH event when discussing the new Auto and why they are doing it.

 

Why do none of you lament the absence of manual spark advance? Or manual start? How is that set of skills once necessary for driving any less engaging than a stick and pedal?

I love the F1 xmission, especially in its latest iteration, and find it and the car to be every bit as engaging as a car with a third pedal and aluminum stick on the center tunnel, in different ways. I have no need to prove I can heel/toe, rev match, or correctly set the advance for acceleration vs cruising: been there, done that, skills I have but thankfully don't need. Machines, and now computers do all that and more so much more efficiently than any human can, so I can focus on the driving. And admire and marvel at the incredible technology that allows the computers in my car to handle the manual gearbox far more effectively than any human could.

At the end of the day, to me, Ferrari is about advancing the automobile, technologically, and aesthetically, in response to lessons learned in F1 and other racing. I admire the very first F1 box they released for its brash and crude behavior, and as the beginning of over a decade of improvements and technological advances that parallel and feed off their knowledge and experience in racing.

 

How hard would it be for aftermarket companies to offer a manual retrofit kit?

Imagine a 599 GTO with a manual 6gb.

 

I never liked the argument you are presenting because, if as you did want to continue in the devolution of transportation, might as well go back to the first caveman chipping away at a block of stone to create the wheel.

I for one enjoy & collect Sports Cars that still utilize, points,plugs,condenser, rotor, cap.
I personally would NEVER own a computer controlled, nanny assisted, floppy paddle shifted car.
I have the ways & means to pursue the newest rendition of various manufacturs cars.
I would rather find myself in a vintage Jaguar 150, a early series 356 Porsche, a BN6 Austin Healey, a 1957 Mercedes 190 SL, a 1963 Split Window Corvette, a 1971 DeTomaso Pantera, etc, etc.

 

Starter, spark advance etc don't affect the driving experience - gearbox, traction control and the like DO. Each to their own, but it's clear there are a lot of folk here who enjoy DRIVING their cars, rather than just 'point and squirt' a vehicle to get from A to B, or using nanny aids that let them pretend they're Schumi on the track.

Personally I hate driving to get from A to B (would rather take a train if I could!), but my idea of heaven is fanging through the hills in my 308, trying to get the corners correct, the car nicely balanced, and feeling like I'm in synch with the whole package, together with the little frisson of danger that if you get it wrong, it's going to cost you cash, bones or both! No interest in getting anywhere in the fastest time or being able to slide around a track when I know none of it is in MY control. LOL! Maybe I'm just a control freak...

 

There is hope.

Having driven flappy paddle cars and manual tranny cars... I'll take a manual tranny any day over the flappy panel nonsense.

 

Here it is, always someone brings in a straw-man argument. Members in their 70s grew up with cars that didn't have manual spark advance and start. We are talking about technology that we did use, a clutch pedal.

 

Grow up already and come into this century. I suppose you want hand cranked starters, bias ply tires and drum brakes too.

If you want a old car with three pedals there are thousands of them out there for sale. They are wonderful too, and I prefer them to new Ferraris, but new cars should be the best they can be and best three pedal manual shifters are positively lousy next to a competent double clutch, paddle shifted transmission

 

Here it is, always someone brings in a straw-man argument. We are talking about technology that we did use, a clutch pedal, and technology that gives the human interaction with the vehicle's system.

 

there is a 599 manual for sale on this site right now, so those of you complaining can put your money where your mouthes are

 

This is turning to an endless debate, I am not against evolution of technology even considering changing my Jeta TDI at the end of the lease for a Telsa.
Ferrari is produced by and for passionate people at a rate of say about 7000 unit/year,the required r&d budget to keep up with the constant evolution and shorter life span of electronics is astronomical.
F 1 is committed to supercharged V 6 -kers and what have you? Down the line for the road cars manufacturers like Honda-Toyota also with F 1 expertise (and who's next=Kia?) but with funding provided by the sale of millions of units can easily win the tech race.
What I foresee here is electronic hightech vs hightech and the mechanical part is taking a secondary place. This irreversible path could tame down our passion actually provided by the uniqueness of Ferrari.

 

This is always a pointless debate. Both transmissions have their merits and, personally, I like both. Regardless, whatever your opinion, the fact is that manual transmissions are soon going to be a thing of the past. Those who are hoping that Ferrari is going to come out with a new F40 with a manual transmission and no electronic driving aids are kidding themselves. Like it or not, manufacturers have moved on.

 

There he is!

 

A couple of points. Things like hand cranks and points do not add to the driving experience, they are funtionaly obsolete. Unlike FI and disk brakes arguably Paddles and eps take away from the driving experience, as do vairous a aids like full on non defeatable esp. Now these modern aids do make a car "faster" under ceratin track conditions. Note that mnaufacturers allow esp to be disabled even though many a car is "faster" with it on. The reason is fun.

Now paddle make a car "faster" its obvious. take the number of shifts per lap, shorten shift time by a certain amount and the car is faster. They may also make a car more pleasant in traffic.

But speed for its owns sake and traffic comfort may drasticaly take away from driving enjoyment in pretty much every oter situation. Believe it or naot many of us buy sporty cars for those otehr situatiosns, opem road weekend drives and even fun on the track. On this site most owners always agrgue that ferraris have that somethign special, call it tactiliy that say a vette lacks. Paddles can take away from that somethig special.

Where we get into complications is where cars designed for paddles have mnauals added. A paddle motor may really lack in tourque and play off of extreme revs. In such a mtor the ability to shift quickly enough is severely diminisshed. Turbos too have lag, a paddle box can work around lag, mute its effects afar more than say a mnaual. So partly the mtoors we see in Mclarens 458s and Gt3's are just more syuted to a paddle.

But if you look at stats, a M3 which is a throughly modern car was ordered 30+% manual.
The Dodge Challenger is 50% the Vtte we know, the old GT3 was mnaual only and backordered.

I just dont buy the arguement that epople dont want mnauals. Sproting drivers certainly do. Thismight be a minority but still very significant market segment. But for a manufacturer to offer amnaual they need a properly enginered manual and a mtoor that works with a manual. That is not the 458 motor. TRhere is alsoa fuel economy/emission hit and a paper peformance hit.

If youa re ferrari and your cliental is old, if you are sellign om styling and paper spec, if yous ell all the cars you make anyway then offering a manaual does not seem like a great buiness proposition.

Now if you care about reasle, which ferrari shoudl, then a mnaual is a good proposition , because the used car buyers are not latests and greatest fans, more drivig experience fans. And used car sales relate to depreciatrion and brand equity.

Plus if youa re barand thta si as much abaout that intangible "passione" as about performance. Denuding all your cars of "passione" is not a good plan.

methinks ferrari would do well to offer a lower tech mid engined V12 manual car fro those who wnat it. Look at all those vette buyers, they cant all be wrong or too poor to buy a ferrari.

 

I'll make one concession.. when you have a hybrid powertrain, to work with the algorythms paddles are a necessity....

But that's where my support for paddles end. That 599 would be mine if I were in the market. 458.. love it but it's not manual.

I suspect that conversions will be the future. For the 599 I've compiled a list for when I do get mine how to convert it.. the parts needed, etc. If the 458 gets down in price I'll convert that too. I'm surprised that it hasn't been done yet.

As far as "fuel economy".. when you compare cars in the 80s.. you see similar fuel economy to todays cars, the difference being more power and heavier cars. So arguments for carbon output shifting to paddles and hybrids.. just make a lighter car with less power. Voila! Less carbon emissions.

 

I'm not aware that a paddle gearbox is needed if you have a hybrid?

A 599 would be relatively easy to convert, as the gearbox is inherently the same save for a few things added inside the box of an F1 599.

A 458 would be harder as it would need a completely different gearbox, I believe the 458 is basically 2 gearboxes in 1. I suppose a 430 gearbox could be made to fit though, but a whole lot of custom parts would need to be made to get this done properly.

It would certainly be unique and very cool, but also very expensive. I doubt it could be done under $50K (with the right contacts even) if you want it to look factory .

 

It's like using a sword vs gun. Sword takes a lot more training to be good at but will never match long range of gun.

 

Completely agree.

Porsche 997.2 GT3 Prices up £10k since 991 GT3 Launch - Ferdinand ? Ferdinand Porsche Magazine

997 prices rose significantly straight after the PDK only 991 GT3 launch.

 

When I bought my first food processor I didn't throw away my collection of kitchen knives. I use both in appropriate situations.

However, I would be upset if they stopped making conventional knives and all I had to slice potatoes with was a Cuisinart, wouldn't you?

 

I appreciate advanced technology as well.

The problem with much of this technological tour de force your promoting is that it also disengages you from the road. You no longer "feel" and instinctively respond to it; the computers do that for you.

As a result, you lose much of your skills as you rely more and more on the little nannies doing everything for you to the point where you are literally just steering the car only.

My father, who is in his 70s, sets his distronic cruise control on his Mercedes to 80 and literally just steers the car on his long trips; the car automatically slows down and speeds up as needed, and won't let him hit anybody either. No kidding. For people like him, i appreciate the technology.

For me, I prefer to remain engaged. And that means the gated shifter. If I can find one.

 

Bas, I'm thinking with the application of the electric motor as in the LaFerrari and the regeneration.. it makes it easier to control with paddles and the actuation of the different systems. I'm not sure a manual car would work well with this setup.

599 looks like an extra $10k USD to retrofit to a 3 pedal. Could probably be brought down with used parts etc. I haven't pulled the up to date prices. Needless to say this is something I'm going to do when I get a 599. I might even prepare for it by buying up parts in advance.. not sure.

458. Yup mods will have to be done, Good thing is the engine is the engine and the tranny is the tranny. There are no oil lines that run between the two as in the 430 and 360. I have an idea.. the key is to maintain the proper specs for the CV shafts. Might have some play, but want to keep that to a minimum. I have an idea how I'll do it.. I just want to be the first and only one when I do.

Some of us "near millenials" refuse to give up our stick. You'd be surprised, at least from my experiences at C+C how many others don't want to give up the stick as well.

 

I forgot about the recharge. I'm sure it's doable but I really don't care much for hybrid tech to really get involved in it.

I think 10K is a little low for a manual conversion, 2nd hand parts are hard to find. For a Murcielago, using brand new parts, a manual conversion is around 18K USD. Not bad at all and definitely worth it IMO.

Do hope that one day you'll start the 458 manual project, will be very interesting!

I too refuse to give up completely on manuals. That said, there are few cars that come out these days that I'm completely in love with and not just because of lack of manual gearbox.

I'm not even near 30 and already I'm liking ''older'' cars more. On my ''top 10 list'' (all men have one!) of cars I want the most, 7 are made from 2000-now, 1 in the 80s and 2 from the 90s. Only one from 2010-now, and really has it's roots in the '00s (997 GT3 RS 4.0). Only 3 flappy paddles too (Enzo, Challenge Stradale and 599 GTO). All of them are analogue as can be. I feel like I'm already old before I have a single grey hair!