Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

That's what old cars are for! You can use all your skills and relive yesteryear. Some still like firing muskets I'm sure but when it really matters I think Army personal would prefer to hit the mark.

 

You missed the point, I'm not talking about the Army, of course we want only rounds that hit the target. The analogy is you guiding a robot car to you firing a robot gun, the technology takes the skill out of the equation, takes personal satisfaction away.

 

It's only one small aspect of driving. You could make the same argument about power steering and brakes. However, unless the addition of paddle shifts all of a sudden make you as fast as Alonso, you still have plenty of work left to do behind the wheel before you're anywhere near an automatic bullseye. You can add all the driver aids you want on a new ferrari and I'd bet you're still 1.5 to 2 seconds off of a world class driver, and the really difficult part of driving doesn't even occur until you're trying to find that last half a second.

 

Yes, when you enjoy....I mean REALLY enjoy killing, they can keep all their laser guided crap....LOL

Some strange analogies and psychobabble in this thread. Manuals are just more fun, shame that lazy inattentive drivers are ruining it for everyone.

Never thought I'd see the day when Porsche Turbos and GT3s wouldn't even offer a manual....but they DO have electric throttle and electric steering....might as well go with electric brakes as well and totally disconnect from the mechanicals.

 

I agree. The opportunity for driver involvement to continually improve is still huge.

I hear the "fun" argument, and it makes me think a Miata or similar would get the job done for the "don't care about ultimate performance" crowd. If someone's in the market for the newest Ferrari, the notion of making the car slower in the name of retro-fun seems odd. Can't imagine Ferrari doing that.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I think this is the main reason why there are no more stick shifts.

 

You missed the point also, this is not about an Army projectile and killing. It is about technology trickle down and our choices to use it or not.

 

Heel and toe driving is not a small aspect, and the rest of your post is about the track, we aren't looking to cut seconds off our Sunday curvy road drive.

 

I drove a paddle Ferrari 355 and it bored me to death.
I wound up buying a 3-pedal 360 and don't regret it to this day.

Let buyers have a choice: F1 or 3-pedal.
It's a personal choice.

No one will ever win their argument on this thread.

 

I get plenty of personal satisfaction driving without a manual clutch...If i want one ill buy an older model..its subjective...

 

This is the crux of the whole issue.

Modern sports cars rely on total electronic integration in order to push the industry's competitive envelopes. Unless people decide that they want every future sports car to be a Radical or a Mono, electronic aid will continue to be the primary way that manufacturer's increase performance while maintaining creature comforts and aesthetics.

The automated gearbox is integral to this package not because it delivers a huge performance gain, but because the seamless electronic collaboration happening elsewhere in the car requires that gear changes--which load/unload stressed components, change engine RPMs, and redistribute a car's mass--be just as seamless in order to deliver a complete overall feel.

Additionally, most modern drivers would not adjust well to manually controlling the free-spinning nature of modern engines--say, in a 458 or an LFA--on both down and upshifts (your right foot never totally releases the throttle unless you're braking). The time it would take to commit those foot adjustments to muscle memory (given how infrequently supercars are driven) would be time spent feeling disconnected from the seamless nature of the rest of the car. Most consumers don't want the challenge of that sort of learning curve anymore--they just want to turn the key and have the total experience right from the start. Automated gearboxes fix that problem and always deliver a consistent, seamless experience.

 

Satisfaction has shifted toward instant-gratification.
Gratification has shifted towards measurable results at any cost.
IMHO

 

But Ferraris are street cars, and no one is or should be anyplace near that last half second on the street. Street cars are about having fun at 7/10ths. Running huge slip angles everywhere like in a Chris Harris video is fantasyland.

 

The problem is that public roads have not gotten much better in the last 40 years. Ferrari has forgotten that they make street cars when they left the 3rd pedal out of their future plans.

If you keep making cars easier to drive (computerized clutch and computer activated suspensions) you end up with less of a personal challenge to your skills, and less satisfaction for someone who likes to be challenged in pulling off the perfect downshift or keeping the car out of the weeds. It all starts to feel like you're playing a video game with all the cheat codes turned on (or for you old timers- shooting fish in a barrel).

This would be a different argument if the quality of our public roads had progressed as fast as sports cars have... but they haven't. So the argument comes down to- Do you want to test your skills when you drive on pubic roads, or do you want to be able to send text messages while the car is doing most of the driving for you? (I've had more "fun" in a 355 than a 458, as the 458 didn't need my help as much as the 355 did). Un-challenging road + imperfect car = test of drivers skills. But most people don't want driving to be difficult, so the industry moves forward with flappy paddle automatics.

Singer Porsche seems to be catering to those who crave maximum driver involvement over computer aided lap times. Hope someone does the same for Ferrari one-day, would love to see any of the mass produced 80's or 90's V8's refreshed and lightened with no electronic driver aids added.
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Yes. It's the car buyers. 3 out of 4 cars we own are manual trans. Only car we own that is not is the 458 Spider.
l
This is not the norm. For most people the family grocery getter is an automatic. Most children in the US do not learn how to drive a manual...so they never consider buying one.

My wife will only drive a manual. Most women hate manuals.

So if you want someone to blame...just look in the mirror. Did you insist that your wife and children drive a manual? Of course not.

Best

 

YES. Cars are engineered as a package, and in the case of a modern Ferrari the performance envelope is very high (Why? because it's a Ferrari...)

But, on the learning curve, I'd argue that the best modern sports cars (e.g., 458, 991, Cayman) take care of the non-value added tasks and let you focus on skills such as entering/exiting curves, car placement, throttle and brake, shift points, etc.

Heel and toe downshifting is a workaround for (and artifact of) an old configuration. It's not a goal in itself.

 

I think mass re-furbished classics could be a huge market. The vintage/classic world is totally unconcerned with modern lap records, and record numbers of vintage 356s and 911s are being restored as people actually drive them and realize they're a mechanical feast. They are amazingly fun cars -- even pokey 356s.

However, trying to pretend that modern carmakers like Ferrari could simply de-modernize in a nod to nostalgia is misguided thinking. You don't get a '73 911S by deleting PDK from a '14 991S, and you don't get a 308 by putting an old school gearbox in a 458.

 

Singer makes a very interesting package. I also like RWB for those looking for the more extreme ; )

Cars are evolving...embrace the change; cherish/modify the ones we have now to your taste and vote with your wallet for the future. That's my take.

 

Is there any doubt ANYONE has that if Ferrari could make more money making manual cars that they wouldn't do it?

This is company that charges people $1400 for a carbon fiber cup holder, $1200 to stitch in horse logos on seats (not much different than a $10 baseball cap), $3200 for a back up camera, and $1000 for an Ipod connector. If there is one thing they know how to do it's gauge how much money someone is willing to spend on what for their cars.

If there were a market for manuals and they could charge more for them, they would -- without question.

The reason they don't (and a lot of manufacturers don't anymore) is that the market is so small it isn't worth doing anymore, or it would sacrifice too much from other performance areas that consumers demand.

That is, when demanding more performance and easy of use vs a manual driving experience, people overwhelmingly choose auto. And that's across the board, including exotics.

That's just the truth.

Consumers are driving this change. Not manufacturers.

If Ferrari sales dropped and the reason they found out in research was a lack of manual cars, you can better believe they would change their direction tomorrow.

...but they know they won't have to.

 

Street cars that are at home on the track. I take mine to the track and, especially with any newer Ferrari, you absolutely have to take it to the track (or other closed course) to get even close to exploiting it's limits. At which point, once you're over about 500hp, you're really going to be losing a lot of time manually shifting. Heck, in a car like the LaF, all you'd be doing is shifting it revs so fast. As it is, with sticky modern tires on even an older Ferrari, you end up down shifting very quickly in a 6 speed car, I can't imagine how quickly it would go with CCB's slowing you down and 7 gears. You'd have to drive the whole time with one hand on the wheel which really wouldn't be my idea of fun and probably would get to the point of just being dangerous. In a 350-450hp car with skinnier tires and steel brakes, sure. In a 550-950hp car with CCB's, steamroller tires and 7(+?) speeds, no thanks.

 

Never thought about those things like that. I guess I haven't spent enough time on race tracks.

 

Why does everyone need to reach to conclusions that were never part of the statement?

All is said was that double clutch paddle shifter transmissions, which are "manual" transmissions BTW, are infinitely more efficient and faster than a three pedal foot clutch and hand gear lever setup.

The benefit to DCT's are that they can be driven in auto mode too, and I bet you that 90% of the time, Ferraris with paddles are driven in full auto mode by their owners.

And if I was a California rush hour commuter, you bet a self driving car would be very appealing

 

Look at this painting. Is it beautiful or is it ugly?

When it was first painted, it was considered bizarre and strange. Nearly worthless.

Today it's a masterpiece worth millions and renowned as the work of one of the great artists the world has known.

Does everyone think this painting is beautiful and worth millions? Hardly. But that doesn't really matter. It's still considered a masterpiece by the majority, and probably will for a long time to come.

So, when painted was created it was different, new, and even upsetting to the art community. Now, over time, it's accepted as one of the greats.

This proves one thing: what you like and what you value depends on what snippet of time you reside in at the time.

For the last 15 years in the exotic market there has been an automotive transition in taste and appreciation of "what's good" and "what isn't". Some like the new method of driving and performance it brings, others reject it as boring.

The problem is the pendulum has already swung one way while some just refuse to accept it, and probably never will.

The manual box has set sail --and it's looking like a one way ticket. But, as long as the top of the mast can be seen peaking over the horizon, the debate will go on.

It just won't go on for much longer.
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I've seen Starry Night in person, from inches away, with no glass in between. The 3D aspects of the texture are gobsmacking, and a lot of it is finger painting. Truly a transcendent masterpiece. Not sure a DCT will ever compare.

Cheers,

George

 

What will you guys do when the f1 paddles' time passes? Just drive a boring automatic like the other housewives.