Professional driving schools - when is the timing right?

I am considering enrolling in Bertil Roos's 5-day racing school. My racing background to-date is 3 years of karting as a teenager and just recently 4 HPDE track days in a stock Honda S2000 (Road Atlanta, Barber, Atlanta Motorsports Park). I drove those days as novice but have been signed off for intermediate/solo. I've gotten good feedback on my driving line, car control etc. but am still just beginning to learn heal-toe shifting.

I would like to get back into racing, perhaps in a Formula Vee. In order to jump-start the process, I am considering a professional driving school. Based on my research, I would prefer Bertil Roos's 5 day instead of others like Skip Barber or Bobdurant, but the last one this year is coming soon and I need to decide soon if I want to do it.

My question to the community here is: Do I have enough experience to get the a lot out of such a school? Or should I get more track time and nail down heal-toeing before I proceed?

Thanks for all the replies.

 

First, I'd say post your question at ApexSpeed.com - The faster you go, the more you need.. Second, learn heel and toe separately from racing school. Third, racing is about positioning vs other driver/cars and car prep/setup; driving the "line" is secondary. Do you see racing as the next logical step from HDPE, or is there some other reason to pursue it? Think very carefully about what you can afford, including car prep and who may be available to help you at the track. It's a great sport, but don't underestimate its costs in dollars, time and space (tow rig, trailer, gear). Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

There is never a bad time for driving school. If anything sooner is better so you don't get set in any bad habits.

 

You don't need to go to a track to practice heel and toe. You also don't need to go to a track to learn left foot braking, but BE CAREFUL. If you don't left foot brake at the present time, you can get yourself into trouble when you're first learning. So DO NOT tailgate when practicing on the street.

You should be comfortable with both techniques if you expect to go fast.

By the way, the technique known as "heel and toe" can be employed in different ways depending on the size of your feet, the pedal layout, the height of the brake when pressed relative to the gas pedal, and personal preference. You can brake with your heel and blip the throttle with your toe. Or you can brake with your toe and blip the throttle with your heel. Or you can brake with the ball of your foot and roll your foot to the right to press the accelerator. Experiment, but do so WELL below any safety limit, track or street.

 

Anytime is okay for the racing school. Bertil Roos is a good one. If the school is for open wheel, it'll be difficult to go back to a street car with a straight face.

Why did you stop karting?

And, any autocrossing experience?

LS

 

+1.

And I'm not sure in what car you're practicing your heel-and-toe, but not all cars are properly set up for it. The 348 is great, but my Mazda has the two pedals too far apart for effective h&t. I suspect that it's a lawsuit thing in the US based on the supposed "unintended acceleration" in Audis and moving the pedals apart was a way to keep fat American feet from depressing both pedals at the same time. Anyway, I've ordered aftermarket pedals for that car to try and fix the problem.

 

If your Mazda is a Miata, I simply bend the shaft on the gas pedal to move it closer to the brake pedal and this has worked fine for 10+ years racing SM

 

You should go to Roos, NOW!

You'll not only enjoy it, but Dennis and his crew will arm you with a terrific foundation that will help you in anything you drive.

Practice perfect... After you learn what is proper...

 

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Thanks. Apex is a very helpul and will post the question there too. I've carefully consider costs, and with some tradeoffs, I think running at the back of the pack in Formula Vee is within my budget. If I don't do that, I will get back into karting. I did HPDE with the intention of getting back into racing. Having only done karts, I wanted to get some track time to see what it was like in a full-size car. HPDE is fun but I miss the "friendly" competition and thrill of battling /passing which comes with racing.

It's open wheel. I stopped karting at 16 when my family moved overseas. I have some autocross experience - 4 full-day events and also did the SCCA Starting Line school.

I'm practicing in an S2000. Owners say mixed things about the heal-toeing in that car. I like to keep my heal on the floor and brake by rolling the right part of my foot over to blip because it keeps the leg and foot supported. I think it's a little bit of a stretch on stock pedals but I can manage it. It would be nice to see how much easier (if any) it is in a car which has pedals that are set up specifically for it. The reason I'm worried about heal-toeing is that, from what I understand, the formula cars don't have any synchonizers so downshifting without proper rev-matching can be damaging to the transmission.

 

A formula car driven perfectly does not require heel-toe for downshifts. You should left foot brake. Dog box cars only of course. Don't know if Vees have dog boxes. But in a modern formula car the clutch is used only to get rolling and that's it.

As a former Karter this should be second nature

 

As has been stated previously, there is no bad time to take a driver's school..... and the sooner the better.

You can practice heel and toe, as well as double clutch downshifts anywhere. The skills you learn driver's school can easily transfer to making you a faster, safer and smoother on the road as well as the track.

 

I would think twice about Formula V.

First, it's not really the low-buck racing it was a couple of decades ago. Competetive engines are expensive. But the real issue is that the fields have pretty much dried up, at least at the SCCA Regional level. The DC Region has only maybe one or two cars running--it's driving, not racing. Worse than that, these small fields mean that you are going to be running in a "Wings and Things" catch-all class. So that means you and the P1 and P2 cars--Radicals and Stohrs and things like that. To give you an idea, at a track like Summit Point, you will be driving 1:30-ish times. The P1 and P2 cars are going to be doing 1:13's or under. You are a pylon. Don't be a pylon.

And here is the shameless plug for Spec Racer Ford. Big fields, even racing, sealed engines, controlled costs, great support for car owners, and plenty of good options to rent a car while you figure it out. Oh, and the cars are built like tanks, so it's a less unsafe choice.

Good luck. And remember to talk to people who race, not just people who talk about people who race.
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Thanks everyone for all the help. I registered for the 5 day school at Bertil Roos in August. Can't wait!

Thanks for the perspective. If I do Formula V, it will be in the New England area. From what I understand from the ApexSpeed forums, this area has the highest FV open wheel numbers in the country and is one of the last good places to race them. Obviously, before I do anything I am going to attend a few race weekends and talk to people who race both.

 

I will second this. I have been running SRF for about 4 years now, and started in Spec Miata (another great choice) about 15 years ago; I still race SM some. I really enjoy the engine parity (SRF, not so much SM) and in most parts of the country SRF and SM are the biggest classes.

I have raced a V one time and not a fan, really. Drum brakes! (just recently rules changed for discs, but that will be some $$ to convert). Expensive, fragile engines to run up front. Small fields most places I race. And no side impact protection. Spin and get T-boned and I'd be very concerned about injury. I'd look real hard at a spec class like SRF, SM and FM.

 

I moved to FL from the Northeast three years ago, so am very familiar with the SCCA race scene there. Yes the FV crowd is well and alive there. NEDiv Home is the site for event schedules, etc. Have fun at Bertil's!

Oh, I used to drive my wife's S2000 on occasion; that tranny has to be among the smoothest, if not THE best, around. You need to practice heel/toe at higher rpm's, easy to stumble while street driving because the rpm's are too low. There is a tendency to blip too early, wait until after you've completed the downshift and are just about to let out the clutch pedal, and blip. Just takes time and practice.

 

Isn't SRF now something else like didn't they change to honda fit engines or something like that?

 

You are probably thinking of Formula Ford allowing Fit engines a few years ago; class now referred to as Formula F. SRF is about to undergo a multi-year migration to more power and other upgrades, but those actually in that class will have more details to share.

 

SRF is in the midst of an upgrade to the new Ford engine package. It's a more powerful, lighter, better sounding unit than the old motor. People who have it love it. The rollout is going to take a few years. There are a few cars around now, but they won't start racing as a class until 2015. The 2G and 3G cars will run as two classes for a few years, and then the 2G engines will be phased out entirely.

This is creating some interesting pricing dynamics as people try to sort out what a 2G car is really worth. Also, people who have blown 2G engines this season face the decision about whether to rebuild or sit tight waiting for their 3G delivery date.

I have my new motor on order and am expecting it in February. I'm not sure whether to install it right away or run more of the '15 season before swapping.

 

The new Gen III package is not inexpensive...

 

SRF GEN3 engine packages is $11K. Not cheap, but you get quite a bit. Performance-wise it will reduce the weight of the car by 120 lbs and add 20 hp. It is also quite complete and well-developed, with new ECU, wiring harness, racing clutch setup and even exhaust and upgraded oil cooler. I've driven the development car and it really is a nice improvement. I have mine and hope to have it up and running in August.

 

$11k is a lot for a spec-built and dyno-proven race engine? What is this? Yugo Chat??

 

It's all relative, I think a current spec SRF can be bought for $20-25k, so $11k is not exactly "cheap". Plus, I don't think SRF motors are particularly sophisticated or highly stressed to achieve power, rather the goal is reliability and durability, and minimal difference in power from one engine to another. After all, it is a spec-class.

The choice of what type of car one chooses to race boils down to what one can afford and what floats your boat. What one chooses is not necessarily right for someone else. But also realize that the cost of buying a race car is actually a fraction of the total cost to race.

 

So, this is a really late follow-up to this thread but thought I'd post anyway. I ended up doing the 5-day school. Learned a lot (struggled with the downshifting as expected) and had a great time! In the two races on the last day, I finished 3rd and 2nd out of 6 cars (couldn't keep up with the 14 and 15 year olds!!). Did the Bertil Roos rookie run-offs a few weeks later and won it (along with a free race weekend in the 2015 season).

I will be driving in the Bertil Roos race series next year. The arrive and drive situation makes a lot more sense for me and allows me to avoid the capital investment for tow vehicle/racecar/parts/tools (and the associated headaches), plus its relatively affordable.

This weekend I'll be at the Bertil Roos enduro race at Roebling Road - can't wait!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_e-dBMUsYc

 

Excellent! Dennis and his crew are the best!

 

Go James!