Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

Mmmmm..... Reading between the lines, this sounds like a good old 1970's attitude of: "Real men drive stick-shifts!"


If only we could get back to real driving and real cars:

External starter handles, external handbrakes, cable operated brakes that only work on the rear axle, wooden spoke wheels, solid rubber tyres, manually adjusted ignition advance-retard, hand operated throttles and foot operated gear changes - Now that's what real men drive!

DAMN YOU PROGRESS! - YOU'VE RUINED DRIVING FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!

 

If more people drove stickshift cars (like the rest of the world BTW) there would be less yapping on the phone while driving and less accidents.

the 3rd Pedal is thus the cure to bad driving.

 

YES!!!! Especially if you have to pump 3-6 times with your left foot to build up enough of a charge to make the gear change! LOL

 

One nice thing about the age of Flappy-Paddle exotics.... anyone can drive them. We have a small track by us renting out Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghinis as the new automatic transmissions make them idiot proof for people with zero experience.

This access to exotic cars for housewives and anyone who would like to give it a go, would not have been possible a few years back with manual gear boxes, as the cost of a missed shift would have put the rental operation out of business.

My wife took out a Lambo and a 911 (she still prefers a manual) but not a bad way for beginners to try out a few different cars at speed without any risk of missing a shift.
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Ok lets move the debate in another direction. What we want is engaing viceral cars. So called "driveability" seems to take away some of these aspects in the name of comfort.

Fun to drive is not about the raw ability of the car. For example if given the chance on a track to drive a312PB or a 458 whch would you choose.

What some of us are saying and lamenting is the demise of the truly viceral alive street ferrari. Yes a speciale comes really close. Many say the CS was the last one. But somewhere between what was and say a GTR a line is being crossed. No stick is not the root cause, but surely a symptom.

Sad especialy for ferrari which were not necessarily the fastest cars on track but were certainlky amnongst the most fun to drive and viceral on street.

Think to the late 70s or early 80s. Pick a ferrari model and an equivalent porche could probably smoke it. Yet ferraris were just plain more fun to drive, not in traffic, and maybe not as fast, but on sunday canyon run way more fun and desireable. Ferrari seems to be loosing that. Becommign more porche, more accomplished but at a cost to driving experience.

How many debates have we had where a z06 vette smokes a 458 but us ferrari guys say there is that specialness tactility alive feeling about a ferrari, that somethign special not explained by the raw numbers. Aside from styling and noise, ferrari is loosing that special something. I get it that most buyers are old or their young girfrinds and they just like the look and image. I get it that some just want raw numbers bragging rights styling and the F12 does that too.

But some of us love that special car, the one you wear like a suit, the car that is like a fine instrument, when you and the machine get into the groove its an extension of yourself, a true dance partner. Ferrari does not seem to make such a machine anymore, maybe a speciale. For many a stick is part of the equation,(not the only part) not any stick but a well eginered stick.

Drive an older stick ferrari, the level of engagement at speeds less than totaly beserk, the melding of man and machine, the noise (not fake baffle noise) its all part of the experience and part of the reward.

When I go on a run, none of the moderns are going faster than me in the lowly boxer, I am just much more enagged and rewarded. How many exceed 150, or 120 on a weekend run.

Now I am not advocating building a car that cooks its ocupants with poor ac, or a car that needs an expeinced artist to put right. Modern Fi systems and engineering have cool cabins and pedals in front of the driver not ofset. But character does not need to be lost in the prcess. And say what you will, yes a 458 is a great looking ferrari, the frst great looking one in a long time. But to drive below say 140 mph you might as well be in a BMW, apart from the flash. That is what has been lost, and a stick may add soem of the magic back, but its not only about the stick..

But then the new ferrai owner of years ago, the person who ought a SWB a Daytona or aBoxer, is a very different customer to the fashionistas who buy the majority of ferraris today.

What we lament is what ferrari was, and look for that specialness in a mdoern package. But ferrari today may just be another contrived brand, or at elast its heading that way. And thats fine because its sucessful and survives, but they should still make at elast one product of the type that built the "brand" image.

I remind everyone that ehen ferrari developed the 288 the production run was really limited because ferrari did not think there was a market for such and extreme raw car a machine so lacking in refinement and comfort, so they just built the minimum for group B,. The F40 proved further at 1500 produced that there is a very significant market for such a raw unrefined product.

Even porche creted a new segment for themselvs with the 996/7GT3, then with the 991 dumbed it down for more sales. Seen the prices of 997 Gt3's lately?

So yeah we can go out and buy an "old" ferrari. But what we are asking for is the ability to buy new, a car with the new power levels, new relaibility, new build to go the distance, new safety, but with the charater of the older ones built in. Maybe that makes it less a mainstream car than a cali, but there is a market out there, and it supports the whole brand "autheticity" something that is being lost. I dont know if paddles are the prime problem, but they sure are a symptom of it.

Give me real indiuction noise, and real exhaust, not ersatz not too loud. Give me steering full and alive of feel. Give me a light stiff ride which does not mean punishing. Give me modern brakes that are as strong as forever, I dont need 20k cermaics for bragging. Give me a motor that sings soprano, one that builds power with revs chasing the redline.
Give me machine that is an extesion of myself. Yeah its modern so works properly, and has good Ac. But modern does not have to destroy the rest. Think how great a 458 would be if it drove and steered like say an evora?

Now if you wonder about how sucessful such a formula might be, the most porduced sportscar of the recent era is a miata. Essentilay an elan with mnodern build relaibility perfomance ans soem confort, but with the esseintails of the machine thta inspired it intact.

So where is my modern or maita 288 or modern boxer. Lambo come closest to its roots witht he aventador, a car sold out to kingdom come, even though its not the best or fastest om track. I bet if they offered a stick version of thta there would be a few takers.

Give me a ferrari of old updated to modern times, just like mazda updated the elan.
.

 

I don't agree that it will be boring. At least one driver is already saying that the automatic mode reacts better than he does with the paddles. This is not a Torqueflight, it's a dual-clutch sequential (At present!). Perfect upshifts and downshifts, using only a throttle and the brakes. It would be fun.

Cheers,

George

 

You could get the 2015 Corvette Z06...

650 HP, 650 lb-ft of torque, and your choice of 7-speed manual or 8-speed automatic. Even comes in targa top or convertible models.

:-D

 

Except I already have an '01 456M GTa, and it's way more fun than any Corvette ever.

Cheers,

George

 

I was just kidding.

But 650 lb-ft of torque is a whole different stratosphere of fun.

 

2 years ago I started a thread about the last manual transmission Ferrari. Interestingly, it was not quite as civil as this one, in that I got blasted with comments about wanting a hand crank to start a car, etc. I was repeatedly equated with a dinosaur, etc. I really can't ever see myself w/ an automatic car at all, let alone an exotic, but that's just my choice. I like to be involved in driving and don't like a lot of electronics, so my 3.2 Mondial and Twin Cam Europa are probably as good as I can get it. Now if I could just keep the frigging things running!
OTOH, an Elise and a 360 manual could be a perfect pair for me!

 

I switch between my elise and my Boxer on weekends. The elise is a modern, it can attack corners in a way imossible with a boxer, it turns and brakes on a pin, yet it still retains allt he charater in modern package that made britsih roadsters so desireable back in the day. The Boxer is more comfortable, a little harder work and the motor is in another league.

So I imagine something modern with the positives of a boxerr lithe like an elise or even an evora with modern grip sorted dynamics and braking, yet still retaining thta awsome ferrari type motor, great pinin styling etc.

Maybe somethign like a 288 with a F50 motor. Yeah the fashionistas might not buy it, too raw too hard to drive, slower than speciale on paper, crap in traffic, heavy steering at parking speeds.. But i bet they coudl sell 2-3k of them over a production run.

What is see at ferrari is that they send mailings offering test drives on new calis, when did ferrari ever do that before, when did they even need to do that. Its time for ferrari to make a car in the old mold with all the modern benefits, but without those that detract from driving or styling.

Look how many morgan 3 wheelers get sold in a year, I mean who woudl buy such an upgraded antique. I guess peopel who just love to drive.

Maybe thats it, time for ferrari to make a car for people who just love to drive. Since it wouldnt need a whole bunch of crap and can use many existing compoanats for the 300k they would charge per copy its likely to be really profitable too.

Think 8cyl or even a 12, stick, simple interior and simple chassis using many companants. Minimal electronics.

plus its not stealign sales from exting models, more like satisfying those who are steadily defecting from ferrari. You know time to build a modern classic.

 

Good post, but I would submit that the F12 and speciale to name but two are for people that love to drive! I love and have manuals, but boy these new cars are an amazing (and I accept different) experience.

 

OOooooh! I never thought of that! The workout that helps cure the obesity epidemic as well!!!

Two birds with one stone.

A SCARY thought that I might have to drive a Corvette or BMW in the future to get a 3rd pedal.

 

Ferrari picked the California over doing a new Dino back in the early 2000's... and since then the direction of the cars has been bigger, more comfortable, more electronics... and less tactile feel at speeds under 100mph (where most people spend most of their time).

Flappy paddles and Californias over Dino's or "Elise like" minimalist cars (where 50mph feel like 90mph because you have so little car between you and the road) is the new direction at Ferrari. Profitable, but not what I would have chosen as an enthusiast.
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If that is a pic of the "new dino" I would say wow. Ferrari really lost the plot.

 

I don't agree entirely, though the wheels are an atrocity and the body looks a bit . . . fat.

The 206 and 246 Dinos were sleek and svelte, and in keeping with tradition, Ferrari should definitely produce something less flabby-looking.

But in any case, you can relax. I'm fairly certain that the above is just one website's version of what a modern Dino might look like, and not a rendering of anything that was ever seriously considered for production at the factory, so it wasn't Ferrari who "lost the plot."

Remember all of those "Ferrari SUV" hoax photos?

 

I think the tiny side view mirrors make the car look fatter than it would be in real life. Pretty sexy shape IMO.

 

I don't think it's terrible overall. Just needs simpler wheels and a little toning. It's not entirely un-Ferrari like. But, again, this is someone's conception of what a modern Dino might look like.

Now, if you want to talk about "losing the plot," someone thought Ferrari should make one of these: (PLEASE don't say you'd buy one, as long as it had three pedals.)
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I am going to need four pedals and door strakes to even consider that horrific design!! LOL

 

While agree with everything you said, this sentence won't work.

There are not enough people that can spend $250K+ on a car that also have the property that they really like to drive.
Like to drive well enough that they will spend the time, energy, and effort to actually bother to learn.

Thus Ferrari would go out of business with that strategy.

 

Why would ferrari make a simpler, cheaper car when they're selling all they can make and are limiting production as it is? They make more profit per car by charging an arm and a leg for every conceivable option. Alfa 4c is as close as you'll get from fiat.

 

I was exaggerating too.

You can't duplicate the Ferrari experience in anything else. Other cars can be awesome - I'd love one of the modern Ford GT's - but they aren't Ferraris.

Cheers,

George

 

I am not suggesting they only make such a car, yes in that acse they surely woudl go out of buisness. They can and should still keep their current product range.

What I am saying is there is a market for cars for people who just like to drive, in fact 1500 F40 sales indicate its not an inconsequesntial market. Limited admittedly, but that is also the group upon which the "brand" was built.

We say no one is inetrested in stick anymore 30% of M3 buers are, thata a whole lot of cars there.

What we are tyalkign about is an additional product or a derivation of existing products. As to cost to design and produce. If Lotus can make money on 50K elsies and 80 Evoras. Ferrari woudl surely do well financialy with 300k real man cars.

Since ferrari likes different segements, witness the FF surely it cant be a crime and is probably a great idea to make 1500 he man cars too?

 

For those who define "fun" as a challenge, the manual gearbox is the way to go.

You'll probably also want a front engine, rear drive machine with no traction control or even ABS.

Now that's a challenge.


For day-to-day capability, the early sequential gearboxes were clunky, abrupt, and not very nice.
But the newer twin-clutch boxes are astounding.

I haven't owned a two pedal car since the Nixon administration, so I was a bit nervous about replacing my 5 speed EVO 8 with an EVO X MR with a Getrag six speed twin-clutch. (The Getrag 6DCT470 in the EVO is related to the Getrag 7DCTs used in Ferraris.)

But I'm lovin' it.

Despite being heavier, the X is a half second quicker to 60 than the VIII --- and I think it's all due to time saved shifting.
(Remember Clarkson calling the FQ400's clutch "useless"?)


I never thought I'd consider replacing the 328 with anything newer, but ...
... Of course, it'll be a while before the 458s depreciate down.
(And I'd only consider that because I still have the 5 speed Alfa Spider. )


So, rather than campaigning on the "there can be only one" trail, I think it's probably optimal to have both:
the "challenge" for "fun", and the DCT for performance.


The irony is that, in time, the 458 may become a "quaint, old fashioned" car that's a "challenge".
But there won't be a lot of manual shift ones available.
(Of course, by then, gas stations may have been banned, anyway.)

 

I think the profile of Ferrari buyers over the last 6 - 8 years has changed so much that most of them aren't like the average FChat participant. I wonder what percentage of such buyers have ever:

1) Gone to Skip Barber or another racing school;
2) Driven on a real racetrack;
3) Achieved success at autocrossing;
4) Changed the starter, alternator, water pump, etc, in their own car;
5) Detailed their own car;
6) Camped out at a 24 hour race or a vintage race;
7) Taught someone how to drive a manual trans?

BTW: I am not asking how many have done the above in a Ferrari; I'm asking if they've done said activities in ANY car.

So who is the recent Ferrari buyer? Why does he buy the car? I'm guessing that the new Alfa, the Lotus Elise, the Boxter S, or other elemental cars are not of much interest to recent Ferrari buyers. My guess is that people who can spend 200 grand and up want luxury, comfort, and a foolproof vehicle and not one that challenges them.
Other opinions?