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550 cooling fans

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Rodgerrr, Jul 18, 2014.

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  1. Rodgerrr

    Rodgerrr Rookie

    Apr 26, 2013
    43
    #1 Rodgerrr, Jul 18, 2014
    I live in Tucson - where it is very hot - and have been working to find a way to keep my 99 550 cool. I've done all the easy stuff and am now looking at potentially getting new fans. My understanding was that the OE equipment with these cars was a VA18-AP6-42A made by SPAL. Per SPAL these fans put out 2300 CFM and took approx. 20amps. They were of an open design to dissipate heat and are no longer produced. So I started researching what would be the best replacement.

    In a few places some list the SPAL VA18-AP70/LL/F-59A (AKA 30102113 - seems SPAL has two different part numbers for their fans) as the replacement 550 fan. That fan per SPAL puts out 3000 CFM and takes approx. 26 amps. It is unsealed and SPAL recommends this fan for racing applications only. I asked if there was potential for the fan to overheat a slow speed/idle and they said it was a possibility (eg they don't know). SPAL does not recommend these fans for use in passenger cars, however, they do say this fan is the closest they have to what is currently in our cars.

    The other two SPAL fans that are candidates are VA18-AP71/LL-59A (30102049) and VA33-AP91/LL-65A (30102803). Both of these fans are sealed and put out approx. 2000 CFM (at 0 static P). As it is sealed SPAL recommends the 30102049 as better for passenger car use than the 30202113, though they admit the lower cfm rating could be an issue. The 30102803, I believe, is a fan used in the 575 - not sure if it is the OE fan. It is thicker than the 550 fan so not clear if it fits the 550 shroud - it is sealed - however.

    Given all this - looks like my best option is the 30102113 as others reports good results with.

    Is there another option that others have used? I think I read somewhere where a new shroud was being developed - and used with a completely different set of fans - that was a few years ago and I did not see anything else posted..
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,164
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #2 tazandjan, Jul 18, 2014
    Rodger- John Cribb has a big thread on 550 cooling and seems to think one of the problems is that the shroud is not tight enough compared to the 575M, which does not suffer much from overheating. He looked at all the various fans plus changed out his waterpump impeller and pulley for 575M pieces. Do not remember exactly where that thread was, but you might PM him and he can point you in the correct direction.
     
  3. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Jan 1, 2011
    2,316
    Cooke City MT, The Coolest Small Town in America
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    John
    #3 Cribbj, Jul 18, 2014

    Rodger, I'll try to address most of your points:

    The 30102113 is, as far as I can tell, exactly the same fan as the OEM fans that we have on our cars. I've compared the two, side by side and I can tell no difference in them. As you've now found out, SPAL do not recommend this fan for continuous use on street cars, however Ferrari went ahead & used it anyway. I feel they knew they were in trouble with the 550's cooling system as the fans, shroud, and pump were all upgraded for the 575M.

    The 30102803 looks to be the best compromise in SPAL's normal fans. It has a good output curve, and at higher differential pressures, it will actually outperform the 30102113.

    The 575M does not use SPAL fans, but has Chinese fans, but with exactly the same mounting holes as the 30102113, so those of you with 575M's can replace your Chinese fans with SPAL fans as/when they burn out.

    As Taz mentioned, I believe one of our cooling issues with the 550 is the shroud. I've had C&R Radiators fabricate a new shroud, plus a new set of SPAL variable speed fans for me, along with two configurations of radiators. Both are single row, but one is a two pass unit, exactly like our existing OEM radiator, but just a bit thicker, and the other is a three pass radiator, which we haven't test mounted yet.

    If you're looking for a bump in performance, I'd suggest you try the new shroud, fans, and the new two pass radiator. All these together will cost you probably about a third of what the radiator, fans & shroud would cost from Ferrari, and they'll outperform the OEM setup.

    FWIW, I had cooling issues with my 550 here in Houston, and after replacing the OEM fans with the 30102113's, upgrading the water pump, having the radiator professionally cleaned, etc. nothing made any real difference until I changed my coolant from 50/50 to more like 90/10 and included a corrosion inhibitor. This dropped my top tank temps by about 10-15 degrees, IIRC. I ran it this way for a season, but I felt it was only a bandaid, which is why I began working with C&R to address the real problem.
     
  4. wbklink

    wbklink F1 Rookie

    Sep 2, 2009
    3,420
    Los Angeles
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    Bill Karp
    #4 wbklink, Jul 19, 2014
    Hi John,

    Since I changed over to water and no erosion (don't remember how much Eric from the auto gallery put in but its in the other thread) I have not had any trouble at all,Thats all I did and everything is just fine.

    Last week driving home on the 5 freeway temp 80+ going 6 to 9 mph for over an hour NO Problem.

    Few weeks back driving home from Vegas 102 + all the way again car ran great, it was also sitting on the side of the road, while I was standing talking to a CHP guy with the car running of course A/C on, got back in everything perfect.

    Thats all I had done nothing more.

    I thought that had fixed your problem also?

    Anyway if I was the OP thats what I would try first.

    just my 2 cents :)

    cheers,

    Bill
     
  5. 15765

    15765 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2012
    302
    Las Vegas NV
    Full Name:
    Chuck King
    #5 15765, Jul 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2014
    I am in Las Vegas and I am running my 2000 550 without the belly pan and can drive in traffic or on the freeway in 110 Deg temps with the A/C on max and only get up to 190 at the traffic signals and then the fan comes on and brings it back down off the 190 line a bit until I get moving again and then the needle drips back about 3/16 inch from the line and the cooling fan shuts off but the A/C fan stays on.
    I am planning to cut a total of 6 3-1/2 inch holes in the belly pan/undertray before I put it back on. The holes will be 3 on each side rite below the exhaust headers to let more hot air out of the engine compartment.

    Chuck
     
  6. Rodgerrr

    Rodgerrr Rookie

    Apr 26, 2013
    43
    #6 Rodgerrr, Jul 19, 2014
    Guys, thanks for the inputs..

    I've been running 80-90% water with Hyperkuhl. With A/C system off - about 95-100 degrees ambient, the engine temp runs in the area of 210-215 at idle. After I turn the A/C on the temp goes up - to somewhere around 225 (again at idle) where it seems to stabilize - and makes me real nervous. It gets to around 105+ around here - driving in that weather is not something I don't want to chance yet. Also making my issue worse - is we have low humidity and 3000+ ft altitude where I live -which are not helping things.. Converting to a waterless coolant is an idea I've heard before - I'm going to look into that.

    When I bought the car the undertray had been cut out to allow access to the oil filters - so I don't think I'm building up back-pressure in the engine compartment. Also I can run all day long at 40mph plus without any cooling issues.

    John:

    - I've read your earlier posts, what I never saw was what was the result after you changed out the fans, radiator and shroud to the new ones you had made.

    - You have a real good point re what makes a good fan - eg that CFM at pressure is what matters. Looks like the 30102803 was designed with that in mind (SPAL puts the pressure verses cfm data on line).. Is that what you used in your variable speed fan setup?

    - Have you seen any issues - at higher speeds - with a shroud that covers all of the radiator?

    Thanks again,

    Rodger
     
  7. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Jan 1, 2011
    2,316
    Cooke City MT, The Coolest Small Town in America
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    John
    #7 Cribbj, Jul 19, 2014
    Rodger, the car hasn't run with the new setup. I got knee deep into a major, then it kept getting deeper with head overhauls, etc. and the car is still down, so I can't answer your questions about how well it works.

    No, I didn't use the '2803 fans in the VSD setup. SPAL came out with an entirely new line of brushless fans with a packaged VSD setup that was so clean, I dropped my plans to "roll my own" VSD setup. They're very expensive as aftermarket fans go, but they're still less than they'd be buying the '2113's with the Ferrari tax
     
  8. maranello72

    maranello72 Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2009
    354
    Munich, Germany
    Full Name:
    Stefano
    #8 maranello72, Jul 19, 2014
    Rodger,

    no coolant is better than water when it comes to heat conduction and specific heat capacity.
    The best you can do is use straight water and the minimum quantity of additive which will guarantee corrosion protection.

    I was also experiencing around 230F idling in traffic at 100F ambient. Then I reduced the coolant from 50% to 30% and things were better.
    However, the big difference came when I had the radiator steam-cleaned at the last service.
    Now the water temperature doesn't go past 200F.
    I had been brushing the radiator myself, but that was not enough. I suggest you try this before investing in new and expensive fans (something I was also considering)!

    Stefano
     
  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,164
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #9 tazandjan, Jul 19, 2014
    No problems with my 575M in what should be very tough conditions for a cooling system, high altitude (5400'/1650 m), low humidity and temperartures in the high 90s (35+C). She sat idling for 30 minutes with the AC on while waiting for an emissions test last week. Temp would go up to 190 F, fans would come on and drop temp about 20 F, then cycle repeated. Running 50% Zerex G05.

    I think the shroud and waterpump mods John is making should be a big help. The 575M has different fans, which I think John determined were not SPALs. Using less than 50% anti-freeze with its corrosion inhibitors would make me nervous, especially with our wet liners, unless you know the package you are using covers all the bases with all the inhibitors.
     
  10. wbklink

    wbklink F1 Rookie

    Sep 2, 2009
    3,420
    Los Angeles
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    Bill Karp
    #10 wbklink, Jul 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/456-550-575-sponsored-bradan/379604-how-hot-does-your-456-550-run.html

    Rodger, This one has a lot of info in it .

    Took a while to find it.

    Also what they put in mine water + No-Rosion

    Just found this in that thread:

    I thought I should let you see his response:

    Hi Bill read the F-chat threads, we are using "No-Rosion" in your car with Bottled drinking water.and 1 liter of anti-freeze....NOT Distilled water as that will cause corrosion if it is not mixed with anti-freeze of at least 40%....just wanted to let you know

    Regards
    Eric

    cheers,

    Bill
     
  11. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,164
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #11 tazandjan, Jul 19, 2014
    Bill- The factory ready to use premix of G05 uses demineralized water and not distilled. With 50% G05, I do not worry about distilled water.
     
  12. wbklink

    wbklink F1 Rookie

    Sep 2, 2009
    3,420
    Los Angeles
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    Bill Karp
    #12 wbklink, Jul 20, 2014
    You know I'm the least technical guy on this forum, I was passing on what my tech used in my car and how well it works (never had to change the fans) The Auto Gallery had ordered them but the change over worked on its own.

    I just depend on Eric in L.A.and Keven and the boys at PENSKE-WYNN in Vegas.

    cheers,

    Bill
     
  13. Rodgerrr

    Rodgerrr Rookie

    Apr 26, 2013
    43
    #13 Rodgerrr, Jul 21, 2014
    Bill - thanks for link - I've already read that thread - several times -what I'm running is not a lot different than what is in your car - except I'm using Hyper-kuhl. No-Roision and Hyper-kuhl are made by the same company. As I understand it they are both intended for use cars essentially running pure water - and hyper-kuhl was intended to go one step further us reducing the operating temp - reason I went with it. I'm going call the no-rosion guys and see if I need to switch. BTW it helped - but not enough to suit me. The water I am using has gone through an RO/DI process (what I use in my reef aquariums)..

    In reading all the threads on this issue what I've gathered is that some cars are working fine - a lot are like mine and are running hot- and when these cars were new there were no cooling issues. It appears to me these cars were intended to run between (79C/174F where the t'stat opens and 95C/205F where the fans kick in). I checked with a Ferrari mechanic I know and he told me the two most prevalent failure mechanisms are the thermostat and the fans. My car has a new thermostat - did not change anything. The fans are suspect as they are not sealed putting the bearings at risk and apparently the circuits driving them may develop a high resistance - limiting the current/voltage and fan RPM. This is my next target to sort out...

    I'm also looking into changing out the fan shroud while I'm in there as that is one of several things Ferrari did to improve cooling on the 575. Regarding the radiator I'll probably pull it and have it looked at. I'm leaning a lot toward replacing it with an aftermarket one, we'll see. Regarding that, the 575 WSM, calls for pulling the condenser, oil cooler, power steering cooing lines, water radiator, shroud and fans as a unit. That necessitates evacuating the A/C and draining the engine oil and power steering system and likely replacing the A/C receiver/dryer. All those fluids (including the Freon and drier) are new in my car - so I really don't like the idea of tossing them. Does anyone know in I can pull just the fans, shroud and water radiator, leaving the rest in the car? I've looked the car over and it seems doable. John - I've already sent an email to C&R, requesting into from them.

    It looks like some replaced the water pump pulley and impeller.. For now I think I'm going to hold off looking into that until last...

    Thanks again for the help..

    Rodger
     
  14. wbklink

    wbklink F1 Rookie

    Sep 2, 2009
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    Bill Karp
    #14 wbklink, Jul 21, 2014
    Hi Rodger, John is your guy for sure he has been thru most of the stuff you're talking about.

    I'm sure in the end it will all work out.

    cheers,

    Bill
     

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