Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

Out of my seven cars, only one is an automatic and that's my Land Rover LR3. If it had been available in this country with a manual (like the Discovery 3 is in Europe and elsewhere) I would have gotten that.

Even my wife drives a manual. 340hp V8 AWD. Wagon. Shame they aren't making anything close to that car these days. A total shame.

 

1) Gone to Skip Barber or another racing school; -- Nope but did go to many many HPDEs as a student.
2) Driven on a real racetrack; -- more than 50 times in the F355
3) Achieved success at autocrossing; -- won first time out*
4) Changed the starter, alternator, water pump, etc, in their own car; -- check
5) Detailed their own car; -- check
6) Camped out at a 24 hour race or a vintage race; -- 24 hrs of Daytona
7) Taught someone how to drive a manual trans? -- I actually am a HPDE instructor (now).

BTW: I am not asking how many have done the above in a Ferrari; I'm asking if they've done said activities in ANY car. -- I did all of the above in the F355.

(*) autocrossing is boring after you experience success on a real race track..........

 

So, Mitch, you're about the same kind of car guy I am. Does Ferrari currently build your dream car?

 

Done all on that list. Taught my two boys and about a dozen of their friends to drive stick in a beater 308GTB. That was fun! Taught them to race too starting in karts and graduating up to club races in an old Alfa GT1750. I love racing old cars. They seem much faster than really are and they take some skill to hustle around a track. That Alfa ate clutches 'though

 

6 outta 7

 

No, not anymore; I happen to like manuals.

 

Yep...Anyone who thinks heel and toe is no longer used and that controlling three pedals with two feet is an easy skill has never done it. Hitting the proper shift point with a flappy paddle is only a tad harder than riding a rollercoster.

 

Well lets see I've owned BMW SMG, Maserati CC, Lamborghini E Gear, Porsche PDK and Ferrari F1. I might be stuck in the past (I think music ended when Jerry passed) but still own two 3 pedal cars and have no interest in any sports cars with paddle shifters. I don't care how fast they shift they take away the pure enjoyment of having full control of the car. Then again I hate traction controls too and either remove them or disable them from my cars. It is a shame but if you want a gearshift new car you can cross Ferrari off your list.

 

The sad reality is the driver acumen of today's typical driver (including some Ferrari drivers sadly) encompasses that of pea. Think about it: you are letting people with virtually no driver IQ to purchase and drive a 200 mph car with no special training! And virtually all governments let any idiot drive; a 5-year old has enough IQ to pass a typical driver's test.

If Ferrari were to go back to making raw cars that many of us would appreciate, these cell-phone talking rich morons would be killed or seriously injured every day - Ferrari would be sued out of existence.

Ferrari has to cater to these folks by developing technologies that keeps them safe from themselves and allow a larger audience to "drive" their cars to increase profits. That costs a lot of money. In fairness to Ferrari, they do allow more responsible drivers to turn off some of the robot control - but not all.

To me, paddle shifters are just a glorified version of automatic. The only difference is the paddles give you some leeway to operate beyond complete computer control mode - but not much. In addition, Paddles are sequential shifters that prevent you from going directly to any gear. And, you have virtually no control over the clutch. Yes, they can help make things less stressful on a challenging track; but, a driver who is focused and keeps themselves in shape should not have issues with a traditional manual.

The only exception is for good drivers who may be physically challenged and are unable to operate a clutch. For them, I am happy the technology exists.

I would love to see Ferrari develop a raw MT street car that requires an SCCA Competition license or equivalent to operate. This should be a cheaper car to purchase, be far more enjoyable, and ensure it ends up in the right hands.

 

Really the debate boild down to this.
If Ferrari built a MT "raw" car how many owuld they sell, is there abuisness case there. Sales of the 997.2 GT3 to name 1 indicate there is a buisness case there.
Lets say its a car with lots of modern features where such features enhgance relaibility but do not detract from driving enjoyment.

Now nothing about this says that ferrari has to stop making or offering flappy paddles tot he 90% of its customers who wnat and use them, just rateher that they offer an alterntaive product.

Think of a modern ferrri classic. A car imbued with all the classic ferrari cues, but witht he drawbacks and rough edges polished off. That is wjhat tech can and should do. You know betetr aero, great reliability, ac that works, lots of power, unlimyed brakes, balanced chasiis dynamics, tolerable ride.

Things liek tcatility and setterign feel, a machine that talks to you, can be bred in. Hell if mazda can do this with a miata why cant ferrari.

As the japanese dicivered with superbikes, past a certain point, the cahllenege is not to go faster ona therorertical lap, but to build a machine of awesoma capability that strikes the balance with charisma performance and seer joy of riding.
Look at what the big sellers at Ducati are. If Ducati had just focussed on nth degree sportbikes where would they be today.

 

I could add to your list:
8) Participated in a real automobile or motorcycle race; not just a track day.
9) Replaced the piston in an engine; any engine, even a lawn mower.
10) Earned the money to buy their Ferrari the old fashioned way; i.e. they worked for it doing a real job, not just being something like an investment banker.
11) Knows how to weld.
12) Served their country in some way other than as an elected official.
13) Has a wife who can get ready to go to lunch and look pretty good with 15 minutes notice.

 

Bingo!

 

Meanwhile Lotus and Mazda have built cars that are imbued with all the things that made british roadsters great, yet are still throughly modern(have 3 pedals) and great performers. Surely Ferrari could do the same ona more powerful upscale level.

That is the sadness even of the Alfa 4c. Imagine this car with wishbone suspemsionm, so its not weird or testy. Imagine the maser V6 from the Ghibli with a stick, or even a sonourous 4 and stick option, instead of an econo car bucket of bolts soundign engine and paddles.

Yeah Fiat wont build that V6 stick 4c that because then most of us here probably woudlnt by an Fcar.

If you look att he world of recreatiuons, these machines cost upwards of 200k. its a long long way from peopel who couldnt afford soemthing and built a kit. Reacreations appeal to the Walter mitty desires, but also appeal because there are not equivalent modern products.

How many Kirkhams have been sold. How maany SPF Gt40s. Pretty much none of these are raced, their owners just cant find somethigng "new" that works.

Yes paddles expand the bandwidth of sales. But paddles only also limits the bandwidth and seriously jepodises the core which is the foundation upon which a brand is built.

My guess is we will see some hot stick cars comming out of porche. Like a Cayman GT4 and maybe even possible a Gt3 Rs. It may be only 20% of sales, but its the 20% that counts.

 

I'll say it one more time. If there was a way Ferrari could make a buck from manual boxes, they would do it. Asking for and getting ridiculous prices for options doesn't seem to be their problem.

My understanding is that the last front engine V12 to offer a stick was the 599 and that it wasn't wildly successful as a seller. That wasn't very long ago.

When you offer a car with a manual and no one buys it, even at a lower price than the auto, that should give you an idea why they make the decisions they do.

 

Two issues with this:

In an automatic, the car chooses the gear. In a DCT/F1, the driver chooses the gear. The difference is the absence of a clutch pedal, and I haven't heard an argument other than nostalgia to justify a clutch pedal in anything more than an econobox where cost is the overriding concern.

Secondly, yes, you can set it to "auto" mode, and for most of us it will probably be faster. For seriously good track drivers (and I'm not one), lap times come down with the DCT/F1 box.

Again, it seems like the idiots are going to be the ones using the old technology in the modern car in order to go slower.

The M3 is a luxury four-seater for people who want to go fast but need some measure of practicality. It's inherently a compromise and not in the same category as a Porsche 991/981 or Ferrari 458.

Aren't these DCTs used in Formula One? I don't buy that Ferrari is trying to keep Alonso safe from himself by dumbing down his gearbox, reducing his stress level or giving him a "glorified automatic."

Ferrari offers and sells these because they're the state of the art in going faster. If three pedals and a lever were better in any way, Ferrari would sell these. They are a motorsports-focused company. They aren't Morgan, which seems to be gist of what many of those lamenting flappy paddles would want -- something retro because back then cars were harder to drive and slower.

 

Back in the old days, everyone learned how to drive in a VW. It is a shame that they don't allow them in the country any longer. My son is 29 and has no interest in my toys. He missed the VW era. Sad.............

 

What your not understanding is that THERE IS a market for MT, but most of these individuals cannot afford the inflated new Ferrari prices. They (which includes most of us) are in the secondary market (read: used), because the new car prices can only be afforded by the very rich; most of whom are not serious drivers. Hence, the wealthy buyers want the paddles, so they can make business deals with their cell phones whilst "driving" their Ferraris.

That is why I believe there is a MT market for a lower priced raw car, without all the expensive frills.

 

Totally agree.

 

Mazda Miata? Porsche Boxster?

Yes, there is a market for those. Maybe Ferrari should do a four-banger convertible in the $40K range with a three-pedal manual...

 

That's called a Fiat 500 Abarth

 

I guess those "cellphone business deals" are what gives them the ability to buy the new cars

 

IMO, if you want a high level of mechanical feel a vintage car is the way to go. I find a 458 highly involving, but you do have to carry a rapid pace. One of the things I like about the new cars is that they are fine when stuck in traffic, where I'd be miserable in a vintage car. So I'm not sure a manual 430 will fill that role. You can get the 6 speed, but that's very different from the feel of something like a 356.

Having said all that if I could fit comfortably in a forg gt I'd have one in a heartbeat. I love those cars!

That is staggering. I have no doubt it's true, but it's staggering.

 

Good call.

 

I am in an in between group I guess. I gave a 458, which I purchased used. I have been extremely lucky in several respects. One is that I have gotten to drive, and race a lot of cars. And a lot of different type of cars. I like the DCT's because they are superior. I find a 458 as involving as anything I have driven, although it is different. Fwiw I don't know if my stereo works because I have never turned it on!

I guess I'm frustrated because a lot of people have strong opinions on something they haven't tried. And I don't understand that.

 

Sure, I'll give you one...the ability to scrub speed by feathering the clutch....much more accurate than using the accelerator or brake, because the clutch has larger range of movement so regulation using your feet is easier.