Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

I have never auto crossed.
I'm not sure how to answer #6. Technically yes, but I was driving in the race.
I have detailed a car, but only once. I hated it.

Honestly I bought a 458 because it made me feel like I did when I was a kid and I saw a 3x8 or 288. When the 458 was released I remember thinking "I've been waiting for Ferrari to make that car since I was a kid."

I did NOT buy it because I think it is the fastest car of its type available. It's not.

I don't think I'll fit in a new Alfa. Which is a shame. They are pretty!

 

You find the McLaren amazing?!

You do realize this car does not have a limited slip, right? The time old passage of having the LS send more power to the non-slipping wheel in a turn, and testing yourself to see how much of that power you can safely recover is now gone.

I believe the McLaren uses differential-braking (aka brake steer) = surrender.

PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE:
McLaren MP4-12C design flaw - San Jose Cars | Examiner.com

 

Yup I found it amazing. I actually did know it doesn't have a limited slip. That didn't bother me at all. When I was racing open wheel cars the class I was in (pro Mazda) didn't have a limited slip. Honestly don't know what the big deal is here.

And I actually read the article. It's written by someone who hasn't driven the car. If I understand right it was written before the mp4 was produced.

 

Whom ever made the post about electronic parking brakes is spot on. I can't tell you how many times I have had to bring a car to a stop by just using the parking brake. That to me is a device that should always be available to use, and completely mechanical is design. They don't call it an emergency brake for nothing.

 

The point is driving on the street and occasionaly on track. Fact is as you say you dont use 100% of a modern cars ability esp on street. So the car should be entertainign at all speeds. that means tactilitry and rawness to many. A car that maybe can do 180 with ease but still requires skill at 30 and rewards at 30 and any speed.

As to the modern fcars, they are really unertaining at most street conditions, unless you get off on the showing off, and on track there is always somethign more specialised like a radical that will smoke it.

So we are not talking ultimates here in terms of paper spec, what we are talkign about is looking for an ultimate in experiential pleasure, and here modern F cars miss the mark in terms of driving experience. There are pretty much any number of cars faster than an F car on track. So its not about ultimate laptime, its about ultimate driving enetrtainement.

Driving pleasure is an area where ferrari excelled, for all their foibles nothing came close whtehr it was a 275 or a dino. Now modern Fcars to drive at most speeds below say 120 are as entertaining an experience as say a hyundai, that is the flaw.

Driving pleasure and entertainment on road is just as much a part of ferraris DNA as laptimes. In fact Driving pleasure was the DNA of ferrari road cars.

I get it the traffic is a big deal to you, so a 458 of f12 works great. But some of us, lets say the vocal minority dont drive our sporty cars in traffic or care to, we go for great roads on weekends, or go to the track. For great roads ultimate speed is of zero value, how the car feels and drives the entire experience is the thing. No one and I mean no one goes faster on the street at a club run in there 458 than I do in my antique boxer(and we all go pretty quick), I am just more entertained and engaged.

On track I hardly ever see a fcar, they are ok on track but prohibitive to run and too kitchy valuable to reeally track since everyone is freaked about low mileage resale. Frankly as some here said I dont go for ultimate laptimes I go to be a betetr driver and have fun.

Personaly and I think whata lot of people are sayig n is we would like the ferrari equivalent of the Rs 4.0, a modern car that has all the calssic virtues too in a modern package. I dont remember porche having trouble selling any GT3 varaint. And if you got o the track you see lots of them. Most ferrari club tracdays take otehr marques now, because wll ferraris dont go to the track so much anymore.

I am not talking about a mere stick 458, there is so much more to it than that. For starters the engine of a458 and its tuning would not really work great with a stick, too peaky too reliant on revs and mutiple gears. A 458 has poor steering tactility, but yes the chassis feels alive ina way that a Maclren does not.

Yeah give me a 450hp ferrari with decent torque I dont think we need more than 8k rpm max, 6 speeds 2600 lbs even 2800. No electric seats fancy crap, you can even skip the stereo. You know a ferrari version of a 4c without the crappy tranyy without the crappy motor and without the compromised suspension.
Aero is cool to a point, but not the point that makes an ugly car. If it can "only" go 180 thats fine too.

BTW how many people here have been 180. I have been to 186 after lots of practice on an open road over years of working it up, and the speed difference between 170 and 186 felt as large as the difference between 100 and 160. From my experience 165 is the practical limit on any roads regardless of traffic or cops. So 180 is as fast as a drivers car needs to be. I used to go 150 or 160 bi weekly as part of a commute, its no big deal.

In other words might be nice if ferrari built the quintesential drivers car, for you know drivers, I think it would fit in with their whole brand segement too.

The rest of you can have your flappy 458's with different color dash and Cf bits, and your F12's. Just please ferrari build a car for those of us who just like to drive. Its a market segement being totaly ignored, car can cost 300k it should be very profitable then too. Plus instead of the ferrari image degenerating into Chick calis, some peoeple will see ferraris driven in anger on track and yes street by people who DRIVE..

 

Wow.......... size 14 feet. Do your elementary school chums tease you much?

 

It's not a segment that's being ignored, it's a segment that doesn't exist.

 

This argument had more validity before Porsche also threw the manual away on the GT3.

 

Porche threw it away, your words. Fact is porche could not build enough 997.2 Gt3s (which were manual only) to meet demand. Its the one porche car that was consistently backordered.

I think they built somethign liek 15000 per year. I do believe ferrari woudl love a segement of 15000 cars per year backordered. I dont think a Cali or a FF is backordered.

My wife, who does not like cars and drives an SUV, keeps getting invitations from ferrari to test drive a cali, what does that tell you.

 

Edited for length, I hope you don't mind.

I wish I could compare modern Ferraris to vintage ones, but the vintage F cars that I want are simply unattainable for me at this point. (I'm considering a TR but that's purely because I wanted one when I was in grade school!)

I actually think the 458 is beautiful but that is totally in the eye of the beholder.

This isn't really just a Ferrari problem. A lot of the issue is as you build a car that will go 200 mph it will be boring at 80. I think you are quite correct. I also think it's a tire issue. To make a car entertaining at 30 mph it probably can't be a high grip car with huge tires. (Obviously there is a way, but you know what I mean.)

The Ferrari specific problem I see is that you are basically asking for a modern Dino. And they can sell all the $300k cars they can make.

Have you driven a gated shifter 430? I have not. I'd be very curious to know if that scratched the itch you are describing or not.

 

I can certainly relate to this, the Boxer was the last horse to bolt the stable for me...

 

I agree the 458 is beautiful to look at. the foirstr eally beautiful ferrari in a long time,(excpet for the 456)


A car that can go 180 or 200 need not be boring at 80 or even 40. Try a 997.2 Gt3 and you will see what I mean.

Yes I am talkign about a modern Dino, maybe that is the answer, call it a dino so no problem for the ferrari "brand". Well sort of amodern Dino because no Dino was really more than a so so performer.

Never had the pelasure of trying a 430 stick. I did try a paddle 430 and the peed and revs came on so fast at top I see the point of a paddle on such a car calibrated with such a mtoor and with such gearing.

To make a good stick the car must be enginered with that in mind. The new 991 porche has such a terrible stick in terms of shift and feel, you really wouldnt want it.

Tactility is part of the equation, Mazada enginereed shift feel and engine sound into the miata for a reason, it was part of the drivign pelasure, niether feature added speed.

Fearrari for one seems onbsessed now with raw data speed as is porche now. At least by putting a 991 so far at the top of the paper speed pinacle they can develop the cayamn to start really performing.

Think of it this way, would you rather drive a car with the ferrari NA mtoor or the turbo Mclaren motor. the Mclaren is faster, but is the speciale motor just not the thing to have, becase of the way it responds and sounds?

So its not just about speed, but how that speed is attained and how that speed feels. Modern cars can be stable and planted, predictable, but still alive lithe and bursting with feedback and energy, a best of both worlds if you will.

Why dont peopel buy Japaese sportbikes in droves anyomre, why are sales of things like non sportbike ducatis and MVs and Triumphs bursting. because past a certain point paper speed is irrelevant, and peopel wnat a more rewarding package on what is essentialya vehicle for fun. The speed difference between a stylish great sounding naked ducati and say a hot Japanese sportsbike on the road is irrelevant, and ata recent track day i cant say the suzuki GSXR guys were going much faster than the dude on a hypomotard.

There is a reason why Audi is tickign with a NA motor on the R8 as are others. Turbos are faster on apper. V12's are ineffivient and heavy but people like their charateristics. So why dial out steering and tactility as a charateristic.

You know modern sprotscars from europe are becomming so bland to drive that you might as well just go for a sportsedan other than the styling. I want my sportscar to offer an experience that say a M4 does not. On paper a 458 is faster than a M4 and looks better. On the street is it really different to dive on backroads? Yes but not so different, and therin lies the fault.

Paddles only is easy for manufacturers to engineer in the Co2 and fuel conomy times. Its fatser on apper too, so its seems easy to market.

Yes 70% of people will go for paddles. But why ignore the other 30%. BMW does not. nor does Gm or Chgrysler. Look at vette stick sales or sales of Challengers.

Jaguar is talking about offering a stick on the Ftype.

But its not just about astick, its about a whole package enginered around not just paper speed, but around drivign enjoyment, and for that some of us are happy to sacrifice a little theoretical paper speed.

Two new cars really seem to hit the spot. the seciale and the aventador. Both NA and very dramatic. Maybe the speciale is a techno thing so I can see paddles only. For me a slightly slower speciale with a small V12 and a stick would hit the spot, or maybe lower reving twin turbo like a 288. the speciale mtoor as it works now would not harmonise with a stick.

But the aventador, cant help but feel it would be a much more fun and rewarding car with a stick and 2wd. The aventador was never the fatest or as accomplished as the F12, yet its bcaodrdered to kingdom come. The reason is its a raw viceral machine, or as close as a modern gets to raw viceral.

 

This conversation makes me wonder how far one is willing to go for a "fly by wire" faster sports car.

1) Push a button and the computer decides how to downshift your car
2) Push a buttton (that looks like a gas pedal) and the computer decides how much power to send to each wheel.
3)Push a button (that looks like a brake pedal) and the computer decides how to apply the brakes to each wheel.
4) Push a button (that looks like a steering wheel) and the computer decides how much to turn the wheels after checking your speed, g-force, and other variables.

The car takes your suggestions, interrupts them compared to its sensors and decides what it will actually do to produce the fastest result for you. Welcome to The Matrix... LOL

Ironically, I've always had the most fun in flawed cars that really require my skills to keep them out of the weeds and felt faster then they actually were. But ego or the desire to have the newest cutting edge technology drives most to desire cars that are faster or newer than the next guy (even if these new cars are doing more and more of the driving for you). Isn't the real question- what car has achieved the best balance between driver skill vs computer nannies for the sake of fun?
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You do know that most or all of this already happens, probably all of it in a new Merc S-Class. The flappy paddle/DCT systems used by Porsche/Audi, Ferrari and others are a manual override for #1 on your list, but you have to go back quite a ways to get purely mechanical braking, mechanical throttle, etc. Traction control, launch control, stability control, computer-controlled direct injection (as opposed to manly carbureters where those of us who are real mean control the flow of fuel with our right foot), ABS which handles braking for you and can be summoned by the car to handle road conditions you missed, etc.

That's part of the reason complaining about paddle versus lever doesn't really address the onslaught of technologies that have changed cars over the last 10-20 years. It's probably the only technology that has actually increased driver control.

 

Yep, (after driving the 458 and the Gallardo 560) I'm still of fan of the old 348 because of the raw steering feel, even compared to the 355 which is one of my favorite "Enzo period" designs but got a little light with the upgrade to power steering

I'm realizing that "New" and "Better" don't always move in the same direction when it comes to enjoying a car on public streets. Thought it might be interesting to ask... what car has the best balance of new technology vs driver engagement?

 

Or who will build a car that is a great because it has found an ideal blance between new technologies and driver enjoyment.

It all reminds me of the operational Air France plane that was flown into the sea over a period of minutes by pilots who knew not how to actualy fly, when the computers couldnt do the interpreting for them and then the pilots stalled and held in stall an otherwise perfectly opeartional plane from 30,000 feet into the sea. Or the Asiana pilots who flew a perfectly good 777 on clear day into a sewall at SF airport because thye too were so reliant on nanies that they could not actualy fly, missing the most basic requirement of airspeed.

Compare with Sully who knew how to actualy fly and took a plane that could no longer fly and landed it saftely.

On the flying anologies, a great landing starts way back during the apporach long before the runway and is intensly staisfying to get right, as opposed to autoland..

In a tactile car a great corner on the road starts also with the thought well ahead of a bend as to gear needed proper barking(where to start and how much) at the right poin,t gear slection engine blipping, engaement of the cluch turn in balance and feeding in of the power as needed or desired.

Now in a nanny car, you dive into the corner, the car is doing all the shifting and blipping for you. Mostsly the yaw control doesent let it get out of shape(unlss yous eriously misjudge inetrtia to ane xtreme) and you can nail the gas all the way comming out an apex the car wont let you overdo it. It may let you slide a little to feel the hero. Faster for sure. Satisfying froma skill basis less so.

On the street going fast what paddles offer in etrms of more speed is irrelevant, what they take away(along with say eps) is a whole part of the drivign experience in the name of faster laptimes on track and traffic conveniance.

PS may be way easier to deal with when parking, it may even be less strain on track, what do you now losse with EPS in terms of feedback and steerign feel on the road.

What are virtues on a race car are not necesarily virtues for recreationaly driven street car whetehr on track or street. A pro driver is runnign at the limits on track, how the race car performs at anythign but the limit is irrelevamnt for racing. How a car perfoms below a theoretical pro race limit is very relevant for any street car, even one driven on track durign De events. What are we lossing in the quest for n'th degree speed and convenience. There is s reason why a used 1 year old Rs 4.0 is more than 2X the price of a thereticaly faster and easier 991 Gt3.

i am not saying the paddle cars are bad. i ma not even saying that the market does not and shoudl nto like them. I am not sayign theya re not faster. i ams ayign there is much more to a sportscar than that, and there is a signifacnt market that wnasta d desires a rtactile robust machine fun to drive ont he street at all speeds, maybe somewhat inconvenient but alsoa machine that can run day after day on track without needing a fleet of techiniacns and 50K in spare parts. Ferrari used to excell at sucha machine. But then they did lots of racing besides F1 too, so maybe the street car DNA used to come from soemthign different that tchno F1.

 

My first blush thought is a 997.2 Porsche GT3

 

Great Color on that GT3.

 

I don't see it?

 

The one on the left is cheaper.

 

Interesting question... might depend on when you were born, but IMHO some of the '80s sports cars were the sweet spot (with the F40 being the frosting on the sweetness).

 

I agree, I had a 993 C2 and it was a fantastic drivers car. Powerful enough yet not so powerful you couldn't red line it in every gear. It was a great drivers' car.

And come to think of it, the 355 was similar and sounded amazing.

 

I saw this today in New York City and it made me think of this thread.
Ultimate combination of old school and modern?
A horse and a cellphone haha
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Yes, flappy-paddles shift faster and make *anyone* a better driver, but there's something about the "stick that stirs your soul". It's analog in a digital world. Flappy paddles are robotic. A manual IS *driving*.

It's like the difference between CDs/MP3s versus vinyl. Sure, digital is *clearer* than the analog of vinyl, but vinyl just sounds and feels better.

I would like to buy an F-car in the next couple years. Probably a 430. I will go out of my way to find a manual tranny. Just because.