Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

We have a well respected member here that has had all sorts of sportscars in every category. He said his favorites are stick shift F355 Spider and 993 RS. He wasn't impressed with 997 RS' after his modified 993 RS, even not a Scuderia (although he is a Challenge Stradale fan).

 

Interesting how almost in this entire thread there is really no mention of the additional gear that a paddle type shifter has these days over that of a manual.

The F430 has the same number of gears 6 whether 3 pedal or paddle.

Cars like the E9X M3 came with a 7sp DCT vs 6 sp 3 pedal. The DCT's acceleration is better due to the extra gear.

We are continuously moving towards more and more gears in the transmission and why not. With dual clutch technology and quick shifting from one gear to the next it's an advantage in both acceleration and fuel economy.

Even for the track..think about it. You're thinking should I downshift to 2nd or leave in the 3rd. The less gears you have the wider the ratio. The more gears you have the closer the ratio. Cars are being designed and built with paddle shifters in mind because it's easier to mechanically go through 7 or 8 gears. It's pointless to throw in a lesser gear 3 pedal into the car unless you throw in a new diff with different gear ratios.

The thing I like about Ferrari is that I feel I have a very balanced and precision built car. I also have an E46 M3 3 pedal and feel its a very balanced car also. Manually shifting in the M3 works well as the car doesn't rev up to 7,900 rpm all that fast IMO. The F430 gets up to 8,500 rpm fast. The 458 gets to 9k rpm even faster. Can a person manually shifting even keep up without bouncing off the rev limiter?

The 360, F430, and 458 are all low torque high revving cars. It's important to be I the proper gear to optimize speed. As for myself I'm perfectly happy with my F1 F430 and 3 pedal M3.

 

This is sort of a pet peeve of mind, so let me preface this by admitting I might be irrational about it...

It drives me nuts when people call a car "analogue" as opposed to "digital" because of how the cogs are changed. My complaint is that most (not all) of the cars held up as "analogue" have abs, traction control, over rev protection, and whatever else. I'm mostly thinking of the 997's. Do I think a 997 is a great car? I do. But analogue is a 356. Or maybe a Model A. (Model A is the oldest car I've driven. )

Yeah I think a lot of us are in this particular boat. :/ One day maybe.

Let me ask a question.mHow much would you pay for such a machine and can Ferrari make a car at whatever price point that is?

I hate Lamborghini due to non car personal reasons. Perhaps involving me being an idiot and a female. And I still want an Aventador. They have massive appeal. Never driven one.

FWIW I am in the group that loves the MP4. It's a stunningly good car. The closest dealer is a couple of hundred miles away or I might have gotten one instead of the 458. I still might. I say that just to say I think we are talking about different cars for different missions.

 

Analogue may be the wrong term, tactile is more accurate with feedback through the hands ass and feet, with hands arms and feet doing lots of the directing including that rifelbolt shift and clutch cooorddination while feeling the limits of grip on the front through the wheel and the rear through seat of pants. Using the brain to sense the limits of the machine and using the brain to calculate the balance of forces.

So much more rewarding than letting chips work it all out for you where throt;le position and wheel angle are reslly just suggestions from the driver which the machine interprets for speed and safety.

How much would I pay for such a right machine from Ferrari. Lets say 300k. if it were once in a lifetime stunning I might stretch to 400k, because such a machine could replace a number of other machines, and such a machine is one to bond with for life. As Rowan Atkinson has said of his F1 you can spend a lifetime drivig n it and still not dicover its subtleties and all it has to offer.


having had two Lambos a 350 Gt and a Ct to me they lack the refinement of a ferrari, but in the 21st cetury they seem to offer a rawness ferrari lacks in its quest to be "useable"

Now the MP4. Love the concept. the CF tub and basic design are great. the minimalist dash is fantastic. It really has a fighter cockpit feel/ The seats being close to the center and the contrast with a 458 which feels excessivly wide is big.

But the motor really does not ispire, it sounds liek a blare or bucket of bolts, its a bit vibratey. Its power is sledgehammer huge but not necessarily linear. the suspension just never feels buttoned down, weridly floaty and stering is neither tactile nor particularily sharp. The MP4 suffers by being made "driveable" and the pursuit of low Co2.

A freind has a a carrera Gt and a MP4 so we drove them for a day back to back. the MP4 is faster easier more accomplished, but I would not for 1 second pick it as a drive over the carreer GT. As a daily useable car the MP4 is great, as a weekend sensory indulgence it lacks.

Still the price of MP4s is falling fast, the design has enough sublty to be not so in your face and when they get down to the low 100's the spyder is on my list as a modern for more frequent use like a BMW. MP$ is a cool modern, but its no seminal driving experience.


But what is really hankerd for is somethign with a revy smooth powerful motor a little camy, 5 or six speeds that has a shift feel like a rifelbolt. Great sounds pref non Ps light and miniml without being fake basic like a scud. A modern car, but with all the basic bits that work. Somethign that could deal with traffic if need be even it it feels uncomfortable there, soemthign thta can run all day on track and just needs fresh fuids to do it day after day eyar after year. Something that i can start up at 6 am on a sunday and contemlate the fun to be had, something that makes you work for speed but rewards at all speeds, even if it gets tiring as a daily.

All the mod cons means AC works the motor starts just like a honda, if anything goes wrong OBD2 tells me what it is, its faster than any old car safer in crash, yet still light enough and with brakes that never fade(pref steel). A paddle computer modern may be marginaly quicker but so what.

In other words the fusion of glitch free operation, high power leverls, all hallmarkes of moderns, but still while retainign all those tactile inputs and simple durability that classics have, all wrapped in a stunning(not shock value ) beautiful body..

 

Agreed the low torque high rev sort gearing of a430 or 458 will not work well with a MT.
The motor needs to be setup to work with a MT, more torque maybe 8k revs and taller gearing with a 5 or 6 speed. Ironic that the new turnbo motors may well be suited to a MT, being tourques and lower reving, too bad about lag.

In any event a retuned 458 motor with less revs and more Tq woudl fit the bill too. Ultimate Hp would be lower, so the 458 could still be the fatest flagship, seriosuly who cares.

 

Well, you're criticizing people who define analog incorrectly, which I'm all for! In fact, when people say, "analog car" I often ask them to define that, because I'm often convinced they aren't clear on the meaning (Though it's a pretty soft definition).

Perhaps we should take a brief detour to come up with a definition of, "analog car" both specific and broad enough to apply consistently.

I think my '80 308 is an analog car: No power steering, no ABS, no traction control, and a stick shift. It's fuel injected, but even that is mechanical, and not electronic. By the time you get to a 355, however, I don't think you can reasonably call the car analog anymore, even if it has a stick. I think the last truly analog mid V8 were the 328's.

My 456M is definitely a digital car: Power steering, power brakes, ABS, traction control, electronic fuel injection, and an automatic transmission (Which is way more fun than anyone who hasn't driven one can possibly imagine). Even the 550, all of which were gated, has a lot of that stuff. You probably have to go back to the original Testarossa or even the 512 BBi to cal a 12 cylinder analog, though the 400/412 may qualify too.

I'm probably missing some things, but that's how I see it.

Cheers,

George

 

This is easier for me to process mentally...might not be the best for gas mileage though!
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We'll it's not a Ferrari but at that kind of money why not get a Carerra GT? They aren't the prettiest cars, but they might be the most beautifully put together cars I have seen. They sound phenomenal and you liked driving it!

I understand what you are asking for and even like it. I think that enough people came to Ferrari with checkbook in hand it could happen. BUT I think that too many people (including me probably) wouldn't be interested in such a car until the price was quite a bit lower.

Is there a Ferrari equivalent to a Singer? If so that might also come close to what you are describing.

 

I think term analogue as applied to cars really means tactile with feedback more than luddite tech. Something alive you can feel through the senses. The 997.2 had plenty of tech yet was called the last anlogue car because of the way it fekt and drove.

Tech computer chips etc, do not need to detract from the tactile experience, they very often do, but dont have to.

For example mechanical fuel injection is a pain, efi can and very often does work so much betetr. What difference does is make if mechanical bits or chips drive your FI system, except chips are more reliable and tuneable.

In some cases it does, because many EFI systems are so progarmed for fuel economy and emissions that the directness of driveability is affected. My E46 M3 is a clssic example. the drive bt wire system may have put out the hp in Us spec, but the real powerband was narrow and the motor felt lazy to respond. One autologic compuer wipe later and Hp is a somewhat irrelvant 15 more. But the Tq comes in mush sooner the mtor is more responseive everywhere and more direct. Sommetehr happier to rev and just plain stronger. NBothing wrong with drive by wire is properly setup. Nothing wrong with esp if it does not step in too soon and is defeatable.

So its not necessarily the underlying tech thta is the issue but the way it is applied. PS used to suck but after many many years a 355 and GT3 made it work great. Now EPS sucks but maybe with time it can be made to work betetr than hydraulic systems, giving some assistance at low speeds but feeling like an non ps rack at 20 plus..

The problem then with moderns is applying tech where it detracts from the driving expoerience, not necessarily the tech itself. We know the first anti skid and sability systems inetrevened way too soon. But some loti come with a dial where you can pregessively dial it out. ABS destroyed thershhold braking untill brakes became so powerful and abs inetrvention so late that onec again it became an irrelevancy. The fist radials had a vicius breakaway, but drive acar with PS2s and expreince sublime loss of grip at the limit.

Tech can add to the drivig with power speed braking and grip and it can detract with numbenss and lack of feel.. Paddles because they essentialy remove afunction once handles by the driver both physicaly but also mentaly as part of the driving detract, other than in traffic and all out attack mode.

Yoiu know we ask for greats steering which moderns lack, try an elsie or ebtter yet an R5 turbo 2. Even my boxer talks to you in alltypes of ways through the wheel, you can feel the road, you can feel the wheel getting light as you nibble towards the limits. the car is alive thing talking to you.

Driving car down a great road is like playing an instrument, the car and the road and driver falling into a rythem. Tech need not detract from that witness the 997 Gt3, but as any drive in a new 991 demonstrates feel though the wheel and pedals is now gone.

Its not a matter of comparing a vinyl album to a CD, both sound pretty good and one is a lot more convenient. More like comparing Vinyl which is analog to a cd which is modern but still great sound if alittle muted to an Ipod with is latest tech. An ipod is convenient but the music is flat missing the sublety the highs and the lows, so yes you heard the song but pretty much missed the magic. But hey an ipod is figurativeky greta intraffic so people have badoned sound quality for ease of use, kinda like ferrari. But some people still go for the fulle xperience, as sony has demonstarted ther eis a market for this.

the 997 Gt3 was tech but it had the magic, the 991 is an ipod.

I think tech can and should make the drive better. the way it is applied in many cars, the 458 being no exception detracts from the drive in the name of convenience and paper numbers, its auted experience untill close to 10/10ths where most dont really drive. Which to me entirely misses the point of what makes these Italian cars so special. But yeah i get it most buyers are going for the image, the look, the flash the announcement to themselvs and others that they made it, the ownership is a reward.

Some of us want the drive itself to be the ultimate reward. Tech shoudl offer all that was good about the vintage cars without the relaivility and dynamic drawbacks.

The 250 SWB was not the fatest car out there, it just may have been the most rewarding to drive(in period) and a car that was very consistent lap after lap. A car you could drive to the track on the track and then home. A 250 SWB was not an outrageous shape, it was not in your face, but it sure was beautiful and stood the test of time. Maybe ferrari lost a lot when it went to F1 only imbuing its cars with irrelevant tech to a great road drive in the name of marrketing.

A modern would be imbued with those positive qualities that made old ferrari road cars so great but with tech eliminating their mnay drawbacxks. It could be mid engined, as a modern lotus is mid engined. It could be a modern shape, but beautiful not shock. Ie look at Jims rebody of an enzo. It can be light because without a bunch of crap and a cf tub why not, look at the 4c for example. It could use 458 suspension because that is good and developed already. It would not need ultra sharp ps because a non ps ssytem works fine with light weight and being able to be parked by Paris Hilton is not a requirement.

The inetrior can be pretty bare, but with intelligent sound deadening, so you can hear the motor sing but dont need to go deaf. It can have some leather because it smells nice is quality and durable.. Ac can be open ducts because what we care about is cool air not desgined bezels in Cf.

The motor can be adetuned 458 unit to work with a stick. Just as motocylce manufacturers detune their hotbike motors mfor more driveability and torque on their nakeds, the mtor would be cheaper to produce because it does not need to rev to 9k.In fact the motor already exists in the ferrari stable, that 430 derived motor with twisted crank that is in the maserati graturismo would be prefect.

So yes on paper it woudl be slower than say a speciale, thereby not hurting ferraris new customer base sales, for those who need a fast easy to drive car with great peper spec.

But such a mnachine as I describe woud look timelss, if a bit subtle, it woud be robust because electronics are minimal to basic function and the transmsiion is a known robust quantity. The tub woudl be CF if alfa can farm it out for a 50K car a ferrari version cant be so much more to produce.

Who would buy it. pretty much everyone who used to buy ferraris and more latterly porche Gt3's, which has got to be a few thousand people.

maybe then the ferrari club woudl have enough participants for track days again. Maybe then regular track days would have more than the occasional ferrari. maybe to those of us who drive, a modern ferrari woudl be relevant again. maybe peopel like msyself who can scrape upo 300k if psuhed would be motivated to do so by a compellign product from ferrai.

maybe then I could open my garage on a sunday and see a new modern ferrari. Start it up, let the motor warm properly ,and start the drive working the speed up slowly getting into the goove with the machine and the road, playing a music of sorts man and the machine as one. And a few time s ayear i could load it on a trailer, with my track tires, and sped a few days at the track, drivign the crap out of it, knowing that but for fuids which I can change at home it will need or ask for nothing.

if Lotus acn do that with an elsie and alfa sort of with the 4c, what can ferrari do.


Fearrai has all the necessary pieces. the motor from the maserati granturismo, the supsension pieces from the 458, they can farm out the body or build it at masertai as Alfa does, and the transmsiion can be the same great one as in the ford Gt. I maintain its a market segment inadvertantly found by ferrari with the 288(which listed for boxer money 84K) and then abandoned when they went all techy witht he enzo and newer cars.

In fact ferrari came close with their mille Chilli concept. They dont have to abandon any of the current buisness this is a value add in every way. Its got to be easier to execute and better for the brand than trying to lure non car housewives into buying a cali.

Putting astick in a 458 wont work, as peopel here have said that mtoor setup needs short gearing and 7 or 8 speeds to work, thta car is heavy and loaded with deviated stichign and cosmetic CF. The 458 is beutiful, its a cool car, just not a compellig one.

 

Alas no such thing as a ferrari singer. The acrerra Gt ticks many boxes, as you say i dont look too great but I can overlook that. But hese days Carerra GTs are not 300k cars more like 600K. Carerra GTs also are high maintanance 20k clucthes, they are acheiving classic staus so unlikely to be run hard on track. And any 10 yo car will need a lot of ging thporugh to be run hard on track.

But yeah if they were still 300k cars that is where I would be.

 

Maserati CC?


How did that compare to the 575?

 

15,000 GT3's a year???? Not in Porsche's WILDEST dreams.

I never heard of anyone not getting a 997 GT3, maybe they had to wait, but Porsche would build the car.

Jimmy

 

It's built, it's called the Corvette C7. And ALL the nannies (save ABS) are 100% defeatable. And it comes standard with a 7 speed manual transmission. Don't tick the option boxes and it's yours for UNDER $60K. Great track car, great DD, torque curve that's not a curve because there's TORQUE everywhere, cheap to buy, cheap to fix....

Jimmy

 

I would be very interested to see somebody manually rowing through 7 gears and not mistakenly upshifting into 5th or 7th now instead of 3rd. Or what about being in 7th and wanting to downshift into 4th only to mistakenly select 2nd.

Also I've never considered a Corvette a finely precision built machine. Too torquey and twitchy and easy to lose control.

 

agree that could be tricky. One of the English car magazines voted the 7 speed manual porsche transmission one of the worst transmissions of all time for exactly that reason. that was my point above, when you have a car as powerful as the modern cars, whether a 600 or 700 hp Ferrari or even a 460 hp vette, the quaintness of shifting manually goes out the window ...

 

My bad I meant 1500. As tot he wait, yes it was 6 mos or more and some where never dleivered, especialy if you enated th RS or 4.0.

Point is porche had no problem sellign the mnaual only car, while some ehre argue there is no market for such a machine.

Also if we see that 12cyl ferrari sales are about 1500 per year I am guessing another model that can sell 1500 per year or even 750, less expenmsive to make than the others, and using many existing pieces is a good buismness case.

 

These cars have 7 speeds so as to theoreticaly duck under fuel economy regs. I nagree aboutt he proche transmsiion, on the one I tried it was so bad you might as well go PDK, the shift feel and precsions was worse than terrible.

All that is needed is a good ol 5 speed or even a 6 speed.

Somehow BMW manages to pull it off as does Chrysler.


Shift feel and precision is part of the stick appeal, that porche put a rubber pudding bwol in, is a good reason not to buy a stick 991.

Inetrestingly the cayman is stilla 6 speed and feels great.

 

The new C7 is a vast improvement. Its ironic that the last bastion of great sportscars might well be the USA.

The rub abngaubst the vette is maybe its lack of precision and feel compared to what used to come out of europe, and its motor and general demeanor is more axe than rapier.

Still with the zo6 comming out, extreme Hp, very good seeering(as good as europe can muster these days if not better) and a stick its a very very compelling option. And even is paper speed is your thing I dont see a 458 bettering it.

So ferrari noffers what now, brand exclusivity and design? That si the poiint they need to offer more, tactility aliveness precison in a way that otehr dont. That Gm is surpassing he euors on chasiss dynamics (caddy ATS V 3 series) and learnign how to do the rest well tells you the euo excuse for offering sub par(and calling it market required) is a thinner and thinner excuse.

 

Sean,
Every review I have seen of the car (C7) praises it's precision....
What you describe sounds like the old way of Corvette, it does NOT apply to the C7 (I have one).

The engine (LT1) in the C7 is MYTHIC, I have never driven a car with so much grunt. Again, every review praises the engine's power/tractability/fuel mileage/compactness.

What applies to the Stingray will apply to the upcoming Z06 as they share chassis/steering/etc.

You should go drive a C7, it IS a great car, in every way.

Jimmy

 

I heard somewhere that porsche is mulling returning the GT3 to the manual option due to a lack of support and buyers of the PDK only model.

 

There is some talk that the RS may offer that option. But if its the crappy 7 speed in the regular 991 why bother, and I think porche is comitted to forcing PDK for economic reasons of more profit and less engineering time..

The development engineer for the GT3 said that the engine and drivetrain are essentialy dialed in as one unit. This mitigates in favor of PDK as with a stick there are multiple new variables of the driver. If you elimibnate variables, things like emissions and fuel economy are way easier to do. Then you sell the whole PDK only package as an "improvement" to customers.

Similar improvements we have seen are systems where even vloume control needs a screen, like on the cue system. Realtity is one do it all screen is a lot easier to engineer and way cheaper than a screen knobs combo. If the gullible buy it as an imporvement even better because you can charge more for somehtign cheaper to build.

Think of keyless go. It costs less in many instances to make than a key and lock mecahnism and in some cases where it costs more to make its marginal. Yet you can sell it for a big premium.

Most people I know hate screen only, they want knobs which relate to muscle memory for volume, a manaual switch for seek, and knobs for temp and fan speed. Screens are great for submenues.

Then all stats point to half of people not liking keyless go.

So manufacturers push certain things because its cheaper and or makes more profit, and on paper look "better" hoping the gullible see it as an improvement.

That europeans prefer an auto car is not surprise. Manualy used to rule in europe for cost reasons, the cars were small and cheap, ac was hard to find and auto a serious premium requiring a bigger mtotor. So auto was a premium prioduct. And yes most people drive in traffic where auto is easier. Its certainly easier to engineer pdk only and if you can get peeople to buy it because its an "improvemt" and there is no other option you just saved a lot of engineering and incresed profit.

In the case of the 991 Gt3 there is no other choice.

In the case of the M3/4 there is a choice which has a 40% takeup rate in the USA.

As to the low takeup rate at ferrari, I coudl also say that their last stick offerings were in cars optimised around paddles so the stick was not optimal, and as many here have said, the old duffers stockbrokers and their girlfriends who can afford ferraris are preople who can barely drive int he first place. But in the sued market stick ferrari 430's are now a 15-20% premium.

If ferrari built a car targeted at a more driving performance orientated crowd they might sell quite a few sticks, others seem to.

The improvemtn of PDK is spurious. The 991 GT3 is no quicker than a RS4.0 because the 4.0 is much lighter. A Used Rs 4.0 is approaching 400k whereas a new 991 Gt3 can be had for 150k. Kinda tells me there is a market for raw stick shift cars, being ignored by manufactueres. Its purposely igniored becasue its easier and more profitable to offer paddles only, provided of course no one else breaks rank and offers a great stick car which steals sales.

With Gm offering the stick zO6 I think mroe than few people will decamp from ferrari and porche, that may wake them up.

 

A couple of thoughts:

1. PDK is an improvement. Faster, more economical, more versatile (can have an auto mode for traffic, or use it in manual mode for open roads). I have DSG in my daily driver Audi -- it's phenomenal, and was one of the reasons I bought the car. If the g/f needs to drive it, she can do so without worrying about damaging the gearbox. Not everyone is dating or married to the next Danica Patrick. I haven't seen a road test anywhere where the old three-pedal manual beat the DCT manual. In some cases, there's close to a full second improvement in 0-60, which is staggering. (I remember for the Porsche 993 the Tiptronic automatic added a full second 0-60, so the DCT is as much an improvement over the old school manual as the old school manual was over the automatic!)

2. Manufacturers are not "pushing" DCTs; performance-oriented consumers are abandoning old school three-pedal manuals, so high end automakers are making the sensible business decision to stop making them. There is no longer a logical reason to back to a manual clutch in anything other than a low end econobox where price is the main concern. I don't buy the conspiracy theory. The foremost motorsports companies in the world - Audi, Ferrari, McLaren, and Porsche among others - are onboard. The "driving performance orientated crowd" buys cars from these companies. This isn't the Honda Odyssey/Chevy Tahoe-Escalade crowd who haven't seen a third pedal in a car. Guys who know what they're doing are weighing the additional cost and benefits, and buying modern gearboxes over retro.

On the other stuff -- keyless go, touch screens, etc. -- I completely agree with you, they're all garnish, and probably are used to inflate profit margins. I opt out of that stuff whenever I can, because in many cases they're just Rube Goldberg solutions to non-problems. (How hard is it to insert a key?) But those have nothing to do with performance. Your analogy doesn't hold.

PDK and other DCTs aren't gimmickry. They're better, in the same way that direct injection is better than carbureters, and radial tires beat bias ply. Yes, carbs sound more exciting, but they are an inferior design for everything that matters in motorsports. They have no place in a proper modern performance car, any more than drum brakes.

I understand the nostalgia thing, because I like/have owned vintage and classic cars. The Speedster is still a special occasion every time I drive it. They are uniquely fun, but on modern roads they're anachronisms. Slow to go, slow to stop, deadly in a crash.

 

There is no doubt that dual clutch transmissions are an improvement. You might not enjoy them as much but by anything measurable they are superior.

Personally I think the 4.0 RS market is the worst kind of bubble. But given my history that probably means you should buy one! :/ If Porsche make another GT3 with a stick I think 4.0 prices will plummet. At which point I might buy one bc that's the only way I can afford one!

Cheers!
David

 

Nothing to do with vintage or old. FI makes a car faster more relaible, it does not take away from the driving experience. No one said PDK is a gimick those are your words. there are many reasons driving PDK takeup, one big one being its easier for manufatueres to engineer acar with one option.

Some of us dont spec cars so our grifriends can drive them in traffic, and w edont buy sportscars for everyday use, we use nondescript cars for that. We spec sportscars for the pure unadulterated joy of the driving exerience, in such a case on the road where paper spec means little 3 pedals are aguably a preferable and more engaging exerience.

How about this anology, a digital watch is ligher more durable and keeps betetr time than a mechanical watch. many of us like mechanical watches because of what they are and how they function, even if thta function is technicaly inferior. teh very mechanicalness of a old style watch is its appeal. Same with a 3 pedal car.

Fcat is ferrari aside, when offered the choice of 3 pedal or PDK we cans ee from porche to BMW to corvette that 30-40% of drivers prefer stick. Given that well over 50% of sprtscar driver are poseurs or people who have to compromise because of traffic the 3 pedal takeup si remakably high and manufactiuers see a amrket for it, just not at ferrari. But then new ferrari dirvers are probaly more heavily wieghted to pose.

 

When you take your wife or SO to bed, you don't let the dildo shift her in to high gear! you do it yourself, slowly and enjoyably.

That is the difference. The above and pleasure driving is not about speed and how fast you can get it done but about enjoyment and how you can savor the moments.