Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

Instead of making this about paddle vs 3 pedal just look at it now as 7 gears or more vs that of realistic 6 3 pedal. I already made a point of physically rowing through 7 gears just doesn't make sense. People have even said the Porsche 7 speed 3 pedal is terrible.

Please think about how a manufacturer needs to physically design a gated shifter for 7 gears not including reverse. How many people would try and sue the manufacture for making the gear selections too close together and according overreved and blew the motor upon incorrect downshift. Good luck in trying to get your money back. How enjoyable can a blown motor be.

Dual clutch paddle shifting is here to stay because with more gears you get better performance and fuel economy. For folks who want anything less in new cars is ridiculous.

I like my 3 pedal M3 and accordingly I'll keep it and get enjoyment from it. I'm not going to ask or request car manufacturers to reduce the performance of a car just because I want a 3 pedal.

The main reason as to why I got an F1 F430 is because it was something different at the time. I had a chance to get a 3 pedal and it was like 10K cheaper at the time. I don't regret my choice at all. The F1 and F430 is still a lot of fun.

 

I am gunna make a bumper sticker,

"Paddles are for Metros.
If you don't like a stick,
You don't have one."


Anyone one interested?

 

I think a better one would be

"If you want to start a long thread on Fchat, whine that paddles are replacing sticks"

 

Originally Posted by Brian Harper:
"It is the car magazines'fault. They make a big deal out of horsepower, 0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed and lap times. If there was a fun dyno it would be all different."

Originally Posted by DriveAfterDark:
"They very often mention that the lighter cars with adequate hp are far more fun to drive in the real world, than heavy cars with hyper acceleration, but no one listens. If we did, we would hail the Cayman R's and Lotus Exige's."

------
All of the above points are valid. The depopularization of the 3-pedal manual shift sports/GT car is not from only one source of "fault." It is a confluence of many things (as cited above). It is a feedback loop of pop culture, obsession with numbers and "track times," and obsession with being on the "cutting edge"--a lot of which leaves actual personal enjoyment and driving as an unimportant thing.

This is ironic in that 99% of people will never track their cars. 99% of people will never take their cars to "9/10s" of the limit of performance. Numbers, dynos, the "cutting edge and latest technology" are all items largely used to market the cars. So blame marketing, too. Virtually no one actually exploits the "cutting edge."

Most new sportscar/GT Ferrari buyers simply want to be noticed in the Ferrari to impress others and to occasionally experience a rapid 0-60 acceleration when the police are not looking. This is also why the 3-pedal/manual clutch car is on the wane. So blame everyone.

 

So, are you "stickless?"

Can't use both feet?

 

As I stated earlier, the argument is simply do you want a great car that drives for you OR an honest visceral car that can help you be a great driver.

The Manual Transmission applies to the later.

 

Here's a thought as to where we could end up in the future. Automatic capabilities are going to grow in leaps and bounds over the next few years. Adaptive cruise, lane departure warning and etc are only the beginning. The autonomous car will be a reality. Commuter lanes could be turned over to autonomous cars that can travel in packs mere inches apart. Since so many people want to do other things while driving, these appliances will have great appeal.

In the sports car market / exotic car market, the "driver's aids" not only up the performance of the cars, but make them much safer for the ones with the bucks but without the experience of really driving a car (let alone one with a stick shift). It's really all about the prestige and exclusiveness of such cars. The experience is fun. You can toss these cars around and the computers make you feel like you are "insert famous car driver name here".

So, lets take it to the next level. Cars preprogrammed to race around key race tracks where the happy user gets to select their level of involvement. Could range from user control of steering, throttle and braking with computer driven suggestions via audio / visual feedback to full blown autopilot. In autopilot mode, you simply select the craziness factor, strap yourself in, control nothing and get the ride of your life. Afterwards you can brag about your "Ring Time" and how fricken awesome it all was.

 

Paddle-shifted and lever-shifted, syncromesh or non-syncro, are all manual gearboxes. The car will sit in first gear until the driver selects another gear.

The argument is simply whether using a pedal to engage or disengage the clutch is exciting, and whether it justifies compromising the performance potential of car/driver.

 

It is definitely not that simple. Not even close to being that simple, at least for me.

I suppose I compromised the performance potential of my Ferrari when I selected a 360 rather than a 458. I have also compromised it by not installing a roll cage and fuel cell. I know for a fact that I drive a car fitted with a roll cage and fuel cell a great deal faster than one without. And, I also selected a car with a clutch pedal and, yes, I shift it slower than if I had bought one with an F-1 transmission. But so what?

For me, and I would guess many (if not most) other Ferrari owners, it's not all about the ultimate lap time on the track, or even the potential of quick laps. And it's not even all about excitement. It's much more about satisfaction. The kind of satisfaction you get from clipping the apex just right. That is most satisfying when you're racing at 10/10ths, but it can also be satisfying when you're on a trip to the grocery store even if you are keeping enough performance in check so that you won't kill 7 people should you suddenly encounter a bicycle team out for a training ride who just happen to be using that apex at the exact same instant. That happens here in Italy frequently, by the way.

I'm not so sure Ferrari couldn't make money on a simple, manual transmission car even if that car didn't appeal to the typical modern rich guy. After all, this is the company who built an ultra high performance, non-racing, car which you pay for and own, but they keep it and yet Ferrari found 30 buyers at nearly three and a half million dollars. If that ain't a niche market, I don't know what is. I suspect there is a small, but real, market for a slightly retro Ferrari which would cost a LOT less.

My ideal would be something rather simple but pretty. The 360 Modena comes to mind; not a lot of vents and excessive trick body styling stuck on just to appeal to pimps, drug dealers, and sports stars. It would make about 400 hp, but it would do so using a slightly larger engine but with 4 valves rather than 5 and without cam variators, variable intake tuning, and components like that; i.e. keep it simple, less expensive, and easier to maintain.

Manual 6 or 7 speed transmission, of course. Along with a digital instrument panel and all the automatic, low-cost, extras which are built into even the cheapest econo box cars these days like a trip computer, cruise control, and so on. But the hearts of these extras would be sourced directly from Fiat without any proprietary features so you could fix a cruise control malfunction at the local Fiat dealer. Oil filters, thermostats, and other similar consumables would be common with Fiat or some other non-super-car. The fault code system would be non-proprietary too.

But my dream car wouldn't have very many other options and a minimum of electric motors, relays, and solenoids. Manual seats for example, perhaps with manual height adjustment, manual-only boot opening, manual-only gas cap flap, and so on. Basically, a modernized and simplified 360 kind of car with which one could have fun on the street in reasonable comfort and which would appeal to non-ultra-wealthy drivers who think they're tough enough to live without the need for a heated gas cap release switch or a voice activated make-up mirror.

 

Sounds great! I think a bigger and more comfortable "Ferrarified" version of the Lotus Elise is what you're talking about, right? Ferrari shouldn't go down the Porsche Boxster path, but should go the Bentley Continental GT route. But hey, they obviously don't need saving!

 

I respectfully disagree.

You have no control of the clutch, are shifting sequentially (unless you select neutral, click right paddle, and hope computer selects preferred gear), and are only allowed to shift within the computer's acceptable parameters.

Yes - there is no torque converter, but the car is doing nearly all the work for you anyway - just a clever deception.

You don't benefit from faster shifting techniques or get punished for mistakes. Hence, you don't learn.

In addition to losing clutch skills, your are also unlikely to acquire Heel-and-Toe Shifting skills - the hallmark of advanced driving.

 

But the torque converter is more or less what makes an automatic an automatic. A sequential or a dual clutch box is not an automatic by definition.

I would actually say that double clutching a non synchro box is a better hallmark of advanced driving. Synchros make things easy.

I am a little young in cheek, but only a little. Why have disk brakes? There was a time when engine braking actually mattered in how long it took the car to slow down. Do we want to go back to that?

 

Not really. The Elise is 1000 pounds lighter than the 360 and uses a small, buzzy (some versions supercharged) 4 cyl motor. Performance has a great deal to do with the very light weight. Plus it's one of the ugliest cars on the market. The Elise is almost toy-like, making most kit cars look beautiful.

I'm talking about a more substantial car weighing about the same as a 360 with a relatively large (4 liter ?) rather simple V-8 making a reasonable amount of torque with a nice looking body by Pininfarina. A substantial car you wouldn't be afraid to take to 300kph for fear that it might fall apart and a car you would drive for long distances with pleasure. A car you could park in front of a fancy hotel in Monaco and people would admire it, not ask, "Cute car. Did your teenage son build that for you?".

A car with comfortable leather seats, but with manual seat adjustment. In other words, something very much like the existing 360 with a larger, less complicated, easier to maintain engine (chain driven cams), simple interior features, but with a modern digital dash. That is to say, a car not very much like the Elise. If you want something like an Elise but Italian, try the Alfa C-4, a very light car with a buzzy little engine.

 

Will a transmission shift itself? If so, it's an AUTOMATIC. Lack of a torque converter doesn't change this. They are called Dual clutch automatics for a reason.

Jimmy

 

…dual clutch automatics with the possibility to switch at any time in a full manual mode.

 

fastest shifts are in Auto mode too,

 

You compromised by buying a used car, which is nice for many reasons - mainly lower price and lower depreciation. That doesn't mean Ferrari should dumb down whatever the latest model is. It means you decided that the old school manual appealed to you more than the DCT manual. I've compromised even more than you did with cars much older than the 360, so I understand where you're coming from. Hell, I still want a Daytona...

Not sure how a roll cage or fuel cell would make a car faster (?) I don't even think a roll cage is legal for road cars.

Too much emphasis on punishment and workarounds (heel and toe shifting). You no longer need to be punished, and heel and toe is one of those skills like dialing a rotary phone -- good that you could do it, but something to tell the grandkids about.

The benefits are purely in our minds, not in fact. DCT manuals are capable of consistently faster lap times than an old school manual with a heel-and-toeing, gear clashing middle-aged dude in the seat. All of this arcane knowledge and freedom seems to make us go slower and burn more fuel.

So yes, there's more "work" for us to do in a vintage Porsche 911 or Ferrari Boxer. No doubt about it. But, given that we now have better equipment at our disposal, someone needs to come up with defensible argument as to why we should include vintage technology in modern cars.

True. Apparently, if there's an option to put a manual into auto mode, those who learned using old school manuals, bias ply tires, carbureters and drum brakes are being done an injustice.

True, which calls into question the actual value of all of the arcane techniques that we're losing with dual clutch manuals. Apparently all these do is make us go slower while keeping us entertained -- which is exactly what vintage cars are all about.

 

A modern 288, a bit smaller than a 360 but still a grown ups car.

i think everythign you said abotut he street drivign experience is spot on. Well put.

 

I'm glad companies still make new sailboats.

 

...and canoes!!!

 

You can still get snow skies too, not everybody snowboards.

 

If 5% of the skiiers wanted to snow ski and 95% wanted to board, there would be no more slopes for skiiers.

 

With flappy paddles you don't have to flog the minivan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOtaCOstYs

 

And yet 100% of 997 Gt3s were stick. My bet is if ferrari built asick only car for Divers they would seel plenty to justfy the development. That ferrari sold few pose calis with a stick means nothing. that ferrari sold few 430's(a motor ill suited to stick) with a stick tells us little.
What if ferrari built acr for the stick crowd not the pose at the cappuchino bar crowd.

 

why not experience everything? we tend not to own these cars for all that long. try f1, manual, dual clutch. each generation has varying sophistication of diff, brakes, traction control, etc. enjoy the experience that each offers. just get to know the car that you are driving at the time. spend less time debating other people's preferences and more time enjoying what you have!