375+ # 0384

None of us sitting on the sidelines do know all that was done by Swaters, or Bonhams, during the period from the drafting of the HoA on March 12, 2013 and the filing of Swaters's Ohio motion on July 23. The HoA contemplated that the parties in possession of the car, the parts, and the documents would work cooperatively and in good faith to deliver the items in their custody or control to Bonhams, forthwith upon the execution of the HoA. As a neutral agent for the four principals, Bonhams should have been very much on top of this process. It should have been in regular communication with the parties, to keep each party informed of the performance of the others, pretty much on a daily basis. Broadcast emails two or three times per week would have been the minimum. We don't know if this is what Bonhams did do. But it is what Bonhams should have done.

The next thing Bonhams should have done is that, when it became apparent that Ford and Lawson were lagging in the delivery of the physical items in their custody, Bonhams should have pushed them with steadily increasing firmness. This should have culminated in notice to all principals that the sale was going to go forward at the September 2013 Goodwood Revival, with or without the Ford-Lawson items physically present, and with the proviso that the OC contingent's 50% of the proceeds would be held back until the parts were delivered.

I expect that this approach would have given rise to legal challenges as well. But I think Bonhams would not have been on such thin ice as it is today, having construed its agency to have included an implied extension beyond the 2013 Revival. It is a rule of law that agents cannot arrogate to themselves the implied agency to bind the principal. But this is what Bonhams seems to have done, by continuing to market the car and to sell it at the June auction.

Keep in mind this is just one person's opinion, and the opinion of a person who is ignorant of most of the behind the scenes facts. But it is this issue which makes the past three months of this thread "on topic" for a Ferrari owners' forum: the issue of what the participants in a high-dollar auto auction should do to respond to unforeseen difficulties. If they could do it all over again I think the parties would like to have included a time line for the shipping of the items by the various custodians, with specific deadlines, and with the consequence for blowing a deadline to have been to put that party's share of the proceeds into an escrow account, pending the delivery of the missing items. It also would have been preferable not to limit Bonhams' agency to a single auction event, just six months out from the signing of the HoA. On the other hand, it may be that the parties might not have agreed to any delays past September 2013, and that Bonhams was stuck with that limitation.

 

I had my BMW 740 Stolen in 2003. I called the police station. The officer came to my home, took my statement, took my tag number and my serial number.

Next day my insurance called. I sent the police report and got a check a few days later.

I didn't take all the steps you claim are required, and my car was considered stolen by the Police and the insurance company--the only two people that count.

 

Could the person posting in this thread that isnt Chris GArdner please stand up

 

Until I learn how to text with my thumbs I'm going to have to remain seated while visiting Ferrari Chat.

 

Dear Sir, Your tale is quite baffling. You stated that you filed a police report with the VIN number and tag number. That information Would have been logged into the DMV computer and the Police officer accessed the DMV records to discover:
1) The year of the vehicle
2) The make of the vehicle
3) The 17 digit V.I.N. number
4) The color of the vehicle
5) The recorded mileage of the vehicle if emission test performed
6) The name of the owner
7) The address of the owner
8) The city and state of the owner
9) The name of the insurance company

What is even more curious about your tale is that the insurance company contacted you. I am not aware of law enforcement contacting insurance companies on the owner’s behalf. It would be very rare that an insurance company issued a check for a stolen vehicle in a few days. For decades, the standard practice of insurance companies is to allow time for the recovery of the stolen vehicle.

So, what does this have to do with the 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384?

The alleged stolen 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus # 0384 report was ‘NOT’ a stolen report at all. It was merely a complaint since the complainant failed to list the V.I.N. (vehicle identification number) and failed to provide proof of ownership. No title, No bill of Sale, No registration, No tag number information and No proof of insurance.

The 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus failed to get listed in the NCIC crime computer in 1989. Another incident of similar description occurred on a vehicle in 1986. The claim was; an Ohio resident purchased a Ferrari hulk for $200 dollars, then sold that junk to a California Ferrari owner/ collector for the sum of $1000 dollars. Prior to the delivery of the hulk, the seller from Ohio claimed the item was stolen while sitting on a trailer in front of his shop in 1986. The California buyer did not have proof of ownership and therefore could not list the vehicle stolen.

The stolen claims of 1986 could ‘NOT’ be listed in the NCIC crime computer because;
CLAIMANT DID NOT HAVE PROOF OF OWNERSHIP.
The stolen claims of 1989 could ‘NOT’ be listed in the NCIC crime computer because;
CLAIMANT DID NOT HAVE PROOF OF OWNERSHIP.
CLAIMANT DID NOT HAVE OR LIST A VIN NUMBER

Therefore, the next best thing was implemented in both cases.
Contact was made with The Ferrari Market Letter in hopes of listing the Ferrari allegedly stolen in 1986 and then allegedly re-stolen in 1989. The Ferrari Market Letter listed the information based on what they were told. The listing was for information purposes only, and not a statement of fact.

 

So is your claim:

Kleve never owned the car?
The car was never stolen from Kleve?
The crime of theft that 2 people were convicted of never happened?
The crime that Guy Anderson was tried for never happened?

 

Fantasy, does not rate a response except to state:

17 Digit VIN's where introduced in 1979 -1980
NO 1950's Ferrari has / was issued with a 17 digit VIN
Therefore no 17 digit VIN on police report possible


M

 

SeeSpotRun is WRONG. He is spreading disinformation. There is a reason he is spreading this disinformation right now. There is a reason he is hung up on the 1989 theft report data. I cannot say more at this time about why the disinformation is being spread - other than he is WRONG.

I can say that the FBI officially added the VIN to its 1989.01.27 FBI report a few days after that report was first taken. I can also say that the Green Township Police literally recovered the dataplate to Kleve's stolen car a few days after Kleve made his first theft report to them on 1989.01.24. The detectives who recovered the stolen VIN plate had ZERO doubt as to the VIN of Karl Kleve's stolen Ferrari.

The data was known and Interpol opened its case on Kleve's stolen car and thus, internationally, law enforcement was "on the case". In fact, in 1989 Kleve's car was being shopped around in Europe for $1,000,000. Potential buyers from more than one country contacted law enforcement as they knew it was a stolen Ferrari. The media knew about the theft and the international agencies investigating as well.

Again, SeeSpotRun is spreading disinformation about a very very specific issue. There is a reason he is doing this at this point in time. I cannot say more at this time.

And as to the reasons for the FML ads, they are well known because I have that 1989 affidavit by the man who placed them. He and Roush were trying to flush out the car's whereabouts and were tryning to make sure no one else bought it. That person cooperated closely with the FBI. I have the FBI field reports.

And hey, SeeSpotRun, man up and disclose your identity.

Joe

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If the cops did all of that on my meek little BMW, then why do you suggest that they didn't do the same with a Ferrari?

As for the insurance company contacting me, I failed to mention that I called them after I called the police. They called back to tell me they needed the police report.

I received a check inside a week. My car turned up a few days later--stripped pretty well--in Jacksonville. Police raided a shop. Wheels and tires gone, all electronics gone, all interior gone two of the 4 doors gone. Engine was still intact.

 

FYI...NCIC, National Crime Information Computer, tracks all sorts of crime and stolen property whether it is serialized by something like a VIN or not... there is high value task force which concentrates its' effort on high value theft... the amount of property stolen is disproportionate with value, namely something like 80% of the value represents only a very small portion of property stolen... there is no need for SEESPOTRUNS list of information for a theft to be recorded

 

lp

 

Joe, are you on drugs my man? I will say it again (as I did many times to the Ohio FBI many times in the past..), There was never a 375 Plus in Ohio or GA in the 60s,70s,80s, or 90s or even now!

Again, I was Guy Anderson 'Partner in crime' in the collector car biz (sir). I set guy up with his wife Tammy, his first wife. Tam worked for my girlfriend Lynn (really hot super sexy babe indeed). Guy had 3-kids with Tam.
With that said:

Here is the real story: Guy came to me and ask me if I knew anything about 375 plus Ferrari's sports racers from the 50s. I told him that the Ferrari factory only knew where there might be just 'one' remaining in the world that was real. The next thing that happen, weeks later, Guy asked me to look in a book that he had on old Ferrari's (pos book of Ferrari only about 1/2 inch thick, and very old from the early 70s), and low and behold in the book there was a list of some 375 Plus chassis numbers (5). I asked Guy what was up, and he said that he knew a guy that had some Ferrari 'parts' in Ohio. And said that the guy did not know **** about Ferrari's or what he had, if anything.

Long story short, I am the one that call the GBI on my Guy, my partner, and gave them a heads-up on the matter. OJ! there was never a Ferrari 375 in Ohio or Ga! Period! What a f'n joke son!

Ask me what Q you may have, but be aware, I work with the LA-FBI as a I-PI on high-end collector cars fraud worldwide.

7 out of the 16 250TR at PB right now are all 100% fakes?? But, no, right, they are all real...that a bunch of chap! And everybody in the known knows that! It is all about making some huge-cash (a very nice pop..etc) Major drug dealer became collector car dealers and collectors in the 80s and 90s. And some of them are billionaires now. OJ, stop making BS car title claims! Get back to a real life and move on.

I-PI for LA-FBI

 

McQueen908Porsche, weren't you banned and posts deleted last time ? Now the same BS again?

 

The information stated about the 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384 are listed on these Ferrari Chat pages for all to view, question, and make comments on.

1) The Ferrari 375 Plus was ‘NOT’ listed as stolen in the NCIC crime computer.
2) The Ferrari that was listed by the claimant on 1/24/1989 was without the V.I.N.( Vehicle Identification Number). Therefore, the 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384 was ‘NOT’ listed in NCIC crime computer
3) The claimant did NOT have ‘PROOF OF OWNERSHIP’ to the 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384 therefore, the vehicle was not listed in the NCIC crime computer.
4) The complaint dated 1/24/1989 even states that the claimant did not have the VIN number available at this time, that statement leads us to believe that the claimant was to return with the information. That did ‘NOT’ happen and the Ferrari was ‘NOT’ listed in the NCIC crime computer.
5) The Green Township Police Department did ‘NOT’ receive a copy of the title or proof of ownership from Mr. Kleve. Therefore the claimant was ‘NOT’ successful in having the Police department list the vehicle as stolen in the NCIC crime computer.

The matter here is quite simple. It takes only 3 things to have a stolen motor vehicle returned to the rightful owner.

1) You must have ‘PROOF OF OWNERSHIP’ ( a title or registration in your name inc. VIN number)
2) You must have a valid police report including the ‘V.I.N. NUMBER’.
3) You must know the location of the stolen motor vehicle

Mr. Kleve was informed of the location of the remains very early on. He did not discover that information, he did not initiate any procedure to arrive at that information, he was told that information.

So far, we have seen mountains of documents pertaining to everything except the claimed Kleve ownership of the 1954 Ferrari 375 plus #0384. The question has been asked time and time again on these F-chat pages and the answer still remains unanswered. So now you have the answer…….Kleve could ‘NOT’ show ‘PROOF OF OWNERSHIP’ he did not have it.


Note: Stolen motor vehicle reporting procedure is made thru your local law enforcement bureau or department. The term “POLICE REPORT’ refers to that process. That process is provided by the STATE where you live and where your motor vehicle is registered. The FBI is a “ FEDERAL” agency and will look into suspected interstate transport of stolen goods. The FBI is not where you report a stolen motor vehicle.

Challenge: For those that are still convinced that the 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384 was stolen, please post proof including pre1989 Title and Police Report with the V.I.N.

 

Total BS.

‘PROOF OF OWNERSHIP’ This can mean many things in a court of law. NOT just a title or registration.

A police report helps BUT not at all needed to recover stolen property.

Your third point makes no sense at all. Of course the location of your stolen property needs to be known to recover it.

Try again Spot

 

of course there is NO report under number 0387, as the title to post suggests... is it an attempt in misdirection and to deceive...

 

Looks more like an over-eager typo to me. On the 10-key pad the 7 sits just above the 4.

Anyway, the characters are clearly trying to put on a show again.

Anyone know where the car is today?

>8^)
ER

 

Also, OJ, It was me myself on the other end, talking to Ohio FBI over the years about the ongoing fraud major case. That is why the Ohio court told everyone involved too 'hit the road' in the end. I told the Ohio FBI (many times in person) that I was going to CNN and LA Times (etc.). I may still do so, it is a very, very, large major collector car fraud case.

What do you guys think I need to do at this point? FerrariChat.com owners, please do not ban me for discussing the 100% truth in the matter. The U.S. case is over now right.

Also remember, I work for the LA-FBI as a I-PI for high end collector car cases, no one in the world does what I do for "0" payback.

I-PI for LA-FBI

 

I hope Rob let this thread - and the contributors - follow his circuitous journey until closure, that is if there is closure in our lifetime!

By the way, did the alleged theft happen in 1986, 1989, or both? How come Kleve couldn't remember the VIN number? Also, if my memory is correct, we are told that Roush inspected the car in Atlanta prior to its shipment overseas, probably in 01/89, so he must have known the location of the car: how come this information was not given to the Police/FBI?

 

See above post #1708. No theft in 1986. Actual theft on Jan. 13, 1989. The FBI knew. Gerald Roush helped the FBI and provided documents, as diod the CA Ferrari dealer. Kleve got the VIN to the FBI a few days after the Jan. 24, 1989 Green Township Police and January 27, 1989 FBI theft reports. The FBI officially amended the reports accordingly. Interpol opened a case in 1989. IMHO, like the opinion of others on this thread, it is apparent that dogday has no credibility -- zero, zip, nada.

There is a reason dogday's join date is Aug 2014 with only has 5 recent posts, and there is a reason his present and sudden focus is on the 1989 events, like SeeSpotRun -- sinister reasons.

Joe

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There was not a theft of anything. I was there at Guy's house when the GBI told him 'over the phone' about the so-called missing Ferrari parts claim against him (LA-FBI please record this statement I just made, thanks).

Guy Anderson (and Guy, I still have love for you no matter what happens), was a major collector crook/con in the 80s (only in the 80s),. Guy was one of the best, in his time, with gray-market export "major-paper-claiming-fraud' on low-end (junk parts), as I like to call them 'shi- boxes.'

OJ are you following me here. Rick Cole knows all about Guy past export dealings, so called clean-deals (nothing but mostly paperwork/titles BS claims period). We are talking about claiming total 'air' in a-lot of the oversea exports collector car claims we did together.

That is one of the reason I am the best, and only one in the world that does what I do, I-PI for LA-FBI. The LA-FBI is the larges of its kind in the world, that is why the mob bosses never came and based out of LA, because the LA-FBI is the best in the world at what they do, bottom line. That is one of the reason I moved here 18 years ago from GA. I was asked many times by the LA-FBI to move here to become a agent with them, but I do not need any help with top level law enforcement, or with the D.O.J. Because I been in law enforcement for over 28 years now, as a high-end collector car fraud I-PI. I have over 900 million dollars in bust over this long period. But, you will not find one case on me working with the FBI (that for you OJ).

Again, I been asked by the FBI for many years to come work for them, but I prefer to remain 'clean'. As all of you know, their are FBI agents that are really bad 'kickback-type boys' (I am sorry to say).

I have a billion dollar business (on paper) that I own 100% of (yes that is b for billion). I will be putting 100 million into a Law enforcement business that will in turn clean up the very bad collector car market major fraud 'tax-shell' auctions business. Yes OJ, your thinking, someone is going to kill you m'fer, right?, haha, let them try, it will be the last thing that they will do (FBI)!

Again, there was never a 375 plus Ferrari chassis in Ohio or GA ever! OJ!

And so you guys know, I am very busy with my biz, I don't feel like proof reading everything I post here Okay..

Rob and FerrariChat.com, thanks for not banning me thus far. I understand the website business very well...$

 

Roush knew where the car was sometimes in 01/89 but the FBI didn't act on the tip and let the car be shipped to Antwerp towards the end of February?

Just trying to clarify.

 

I knew the big 'g' (Roush) as I like to call him back in the 70s- and 80s. Before, the Ferrari market letter came into play. Roush, in the beginning, was like Guy, a major claiming Shi- box story claiming crook/con. End of the story. I myself have never stamped vin numbers on parts or made-up chassis to make some quick-cash, back in the day. As all of you know, making paper was childs play back then, nobody really gave a poo, and if you could get away with it? Well it was like dealing drugs...it was very easy. I also work for the GBI and FDLE (that right OJ) for years and years.
That is why the FBI and D.O.J. loves me so much OJ! I am a really clean I-PI, period.

 

You actually believe yourself don't you? You must have stopped your therapy and/or drug regime to be this delusional.

How dare you try to disparage Gerald. Gerald was one of the good guys of our hobby. I too knew Gerald from pre-FML and in its very earliest days.

 

dogday

You sir are a trailblazer.

you only have 6 posts. So far you have called

Guy Anderson a crook/con

Gerald Roush a crook/con

and Marcel Massini has said you dont know what your talking about.

Me thinks you will get banned. You add nothing.