328 ROW v USA spec & road test info needed.

Hello all. Had a conversation over the weekend with somebody who claims to know "a lot" about Ferraris. I was telling him how I just sold my 328, etc, etc. He told me that the ROW spec cars when compared to the USA spec cars made 10 more hp (thought they were all 270?) and that the ROW spec cars weighed about 100 pounds less then the USA spec cars? I know there are small changes for each of these specs, but the 100 pound difference seems way to high to me?

Also, I am trying to compile road test info on 328's. Any year, any spec. Looking for articles, pdf form, high res pics, anything. Even if you just remember the publication, year and car it would be great. Nothing really changed to effect performance from '86-'89, so as I said, am not picky.

All I have so far is Autocar from April 1988 (0-60 - 5.5 and 1/4 - 14.1 @ 99) and Car and Driver from May 1986 (0-60 - 5.6 and 1/4 - 14.2) and Car from July '86 (0-60 - 5.8).

Thanks!

 

US 328s were 260 HP, Euro were 270HP Don't know about the weight difference. The euro had two cat converters; US had one and a slightly less aggressive ignition timing map. The ignition timing difference is easily changed from US to Euro by grounding one wire on the computer. I have never seen a dynO test to confirm it but I'd bet the ignition timing difference provides more of that 10 HP difference than the exhaust system.

 

Mike, oh dear Mike...how many time will I have to beat that dead horse again and again?

The Euro Model 328s have NO CATALYTIC CONVERTER AT ALL.

(repeat after me, naughty boy: "euro-models 328 do not have catalytic converters")

But:
beginning in mid 1987, Switzerland, which is NOT member of the E.U, introduced an emission law that made the catalytic converter necessary in that country for the 328.
So, beginning in mid-1987 appeared a Swiss variant for the 328 that was equipped with ONE catalytic converter, this for the swiss market only. It had 255 hp and different gear ratios, but still the "short lip" nose and euro rear view-mirrors.
Then these cars were sold also first in Sweden (with two additonnal outlets for washing water in front of the retractable lights, peculiar to that country) then in Austria, AND, only during the last production year, in Germany also, where you had the choice between the true euro car without cats, or the Swiss-market car with catalysator, giving you right to a "green" patch.

ALL other European markets 328, that is Italy, Spain, Belgium, Holland, UK, Germany (with the proviso above) and France received the standard EURO-Model (the VIN is ZFFWA19B0000xxxxx for GTBs and ZFFWA20B0000xxxxx for GTS) which does not have any catalytic converter at ALL.

(Japanese, Australians, Middle-East, North American, and Swiss model after mid 1987 have ONE catalytic converter)

Euro cars (without cats) have 270 hp; US market variant 260 hp with cat; Swiss variant 255 with cat; all have a different version of the K-Jet, the swiss one .do not have any WUR. The three models have different gear ratios, different compression ratio, etc...

The weight difference is "slight", nothing comparable with the QV for which the federalisation was a nightmare. From what I have gathered, I guesstimate it at about 25 to 30 kgs (about 55 to 70 pounds) between COMPARABLE VERSIONS with the same OPTIONS Euro to US.

Remember that A/C adds about 20 kgs (45 lbs), ABS about 15 kilos (33 lbs) and a GTB is already lighter by about 15 -20 kilos "at birth".

So, for instance, a comparison of performance between:
- an Euro GTB without A/C, without ABS (there are some...)
- and an US GTS with A/C and ABS
Will be biased towards the EURO GTB which would be 85 kilos (about 200 lbs) lighter that an US GTS with all options...

Rgds

 

some guys just never learn.....

 

And, to answer Ryan above:

There was not two market-models of the 328 as: "rest of the world 328s" versus "US market 328s", there were more than that:

- Standard Euro-model 328: no cats, 270 hp (sold in mainland europe and in every other country where there were no emission laws yet)
- UK model 328, identical to the one above except RHD
- North American model: catalytic converter (so an cooling air outlet in the rear bumper, rear grill around the exhaust further back), slow-down lights on the dash, longer nose (the "long lower lip"), rectangular side-markers, flag mirrors,
- Australian market model: identical to the US market model, but RHD (with cats); there were only GTSs, as no GTBs were imported directly in Australia (or rather exported there directly by the factory, even if some came later from the UK)
- Middle East model, more or less identical to the US market version exceptin some details.
- Japanese market model, which, contrary to what you would believe, was LEFT HAND DRIVE, basically identical to the US Market version, had catalytic converter but euro rear wiew mirrors.
- Swiss-market model, appeared mid-1987 for switzerland, 255 hp, catalytic converter, short lip nose, euro-mirrors, no rectangular side-markers. Then sold in Sweden, then Austria, and in 1989 only, concurently with the "standard euro" model in Germany.

All these cars existing in "serie 1" variant (concave wheels) and "serie 2" variant (revised suspension with convex wheels).

Rifledriver will correct me whenever necessary.

Rgds

 

Great information. So (excluding Swiss cars) a 10 hp difference between USA and Euro cars is legit, and when comparing a Euro base GTB and a USA loaded GTS there could be a noticeable weight difference. So he was correct, wow LOL.


Also, you mention different nose lips? Can you explain that further please.

 

Thank you.

I knew about most off the small differences, but somehow missed this. I had no idea there were two different lips for the nose. Does anybody have pics comparing the two?

 

Well, I'm not that familiar with your federal laws in the USA, but I do believe that you had one in effect at the time which made mandatory for any car to have a front bumper able to sustain a 5 mph (? I believe, but?) front impact.
So, to achieve this the American-Market model of the 328 was fitted with a longer front bumper than the Euro cars, and also with small triangular chassis extension at the extreme nose to support small shock absorbers for those impacts: those shock absorbers necessitated the somewhat longer bumper.

So, when you look at the front end of an American-market 328, the "lower lip" of the bumper protrudes from the upper front (metal part) of the nose, let's say about two inches, against half-an-inch for the Euro model which therefore has a "short lower lip".

It should be noted that there is another difference in the part itself, as the "lower front" part for US market-version of the 328 is in fact two parts:
The spoiler itself (black) is completely separated from the Bumper (red, in about 78% of cars!) and could be changed for a new one without changing the bumper
Whereas on euro cars bumper and spoiler are one single part: when you break the spoiler, you have to change the whole part, spoiler and bumper, which makes this much more expensive (especially more as the Euro part is now "No Longer Available"...!)

Rgds

 

Yes, I just Googled some Euro and USA 328's. I see how the Euro front is a little shorter as you said...pretty neat, I had no idea.

What about performance updates/changes? I never heard of any really. So I was always under the impression that given the same driver, location, weather, etc a '86 would be just a quick as an '89 and vice versa. When comparing similar cars of course. Not fair to compare a Euro GTB with no a/c to a USA GTS with a/c and so on...

 

Basically, given two exactly identical models of the first cars (they left the factory in September 1985) and the last ones (September 1989) there were no difference in performance, for identical versions with identical options, althought the revised supension of the "serie 2" cars made these a bit sharper in road-holding (already much discussed here).

Engine and transmission-wise, there were no important modifcation worth to mention (even if there was a number of small mods to oil pan, valve setas, etc...)
I have one book that I use often as a reference, which is in German ("Autos, die Geschichte machten, die Ferrari 308/328" by Dirk-Michael Konradt, 1990) which is usually accurate but is the only one into which I have so far found mention of a change in gear ratios of Euro cars in 1987, but I have not been able to substanciate this from any other source.

The said book has an annex which mention some of the performances recorded by the different magazines at the time, and they vary somewhat, especially the weight of the cars "as actually weighted"...

Euro GTBs were usually always a tad quicker than Euro GTSs, although that it is clear that the test car, a GTB, lent by the factory to the different magazines at the beginning of production and tested, among other, by a french/belgian team for a special "Auto-hebdo" publication, was exceptionally well tuned, and made the 0 to 400m (your "quarter mile") in 13'8.

81085, my '89 GTB, just came back from her "every two years" mandatory "control technique" three weeks ago, and weighted on the scale at the same weight than two years before, corresponding to 1333 kgs (2.948 lbs) tanks empty. She has A/C, ABS, but no roof spoiler...

Rgds

 

When you say "serie 2", you mean late '88-89 cars that had the updated front suspension, correct?

Also, in your opinion what is the correct top speed of say a Euro GTB? I have seen as low as 153, as high as 166?!

 

Yes, I use the term "serie 2" for the cars with revised suspension, that is, after chassis # 76626.

Top speed figures I have for Euro cars are 263 km/h for the GTB, which is 163,5 miles per hour with one mile equal to 1,609 m; and 257 km/h for a GTS, or 159,7 miles.

Rgds

 

Sorry - I obviously had a mistaken impression re 2 cats for euro cars. Not sure where I got it..

 

In fact, the easiest thing to remember is that NO "Euro" model of the WHOLE 3X8 family (carbed; "i"s; QVs; 328s) ever got Catalysators. (Euro 3x8 of any model = NO CATS)

Other market-models of the family got Cats, but not the Euro.
The swiss market version of the 328 which got cats from 1987 onwards was not labelled "Euro" by the factory, they have a different VIN designator with a "C": ZFFCA20 for a GTS for instance, differing from the euro cars ZFFWA20etc.

The "no catalysator" philosophy persisted even for a very, very first small group of "Mondial Ts" with the 3,4 liter engine, which didn't have Cats either. That small group of cars is rather sought after today.
After 1990, all euro V8 Ferraris got cats.

Rgds

 

So ONLY cars with cats had the "slow down" lights, I assume, right?

 

Never say " always" with out beloved brand but It is pretty safe to say that

 

It also means that our late-build '89 328 have two lights less than the models with cats on the dashboard, four against the six Mike has on his.
(true also for the early build Euro compared to an US car with cats)

Rgds

 

I have 6 lights? WOW...I better go take a look; I had no idea there were that many! Wonder what they all do?

 

You have eight, in fact; but six in the top row, whereas euro cars only have four in the top row.

At bottom left corner, you have the "slow down" light.
On top, from left to right you have the left electroventilator; ABS warning light; safety belts light; defroster (I guess); parking lights; right electro-ventilator
At bottom right you have the alternator light.

That's my guess...

Rgds

 

Yes.

When I first came across this forum and read about the "slow-down light" I thought it was some kind of joke, but it gradually dawned on me that US cars really do have this light.

I still think its amusing though. If my car had this light my wife would have got someone to wire it permanently on

 

Is there any thread on "grounding the wire on the computer" referenced in this thread to add back the 10 hp that the euro cars have for US cars ?

 

I believe it's pin 17 on the computer but don't hold me to that - it's been a couple of years since I did it. Rifledriver posted the info and I made the change. I connected a ground wire and used a toggle switch in the car to test the difference between grounding/ungrounding (going from US to Euro timing) while driving to see if I could tell any difference.

I cannot say there was a noticeable performance difference as I toggled back/forth while accelerating in different gears. But since, at the MOST it could only increase HP by 10 and probably less, there is no way to tell the difference in 10 HP except on a Dyno. However, you could hear a difference in the engine sound, most noticeably when accelerating from 2000 RPM at WOT in 3rd gear. It was very obvious when switching back and forth. I TRIED to feel some added thrust and MAYBE there was some but it required as much wishing as anything else.

The one very obvious difference is the increased timing at idle. If you have your idle set to 1000 RPM and flip the switch to the Euro timing, the RPM will increase to around 2000 and the idle, when reduced to 1000 by adjusting the idle speed, will be noticeably rougher, clearly demonstrating the increased advance.

A very UNSCIENTIFIC test for this was my "water burnout test." There was a puddle of water in the marina parking lot. With the switch in the "US" position and the car idling in 1st gear through the puddle, flooring the throttle started the car moving and then the tires broke loose as the RPM hit maybe 2200 RPM. With the switch in the "euro" position, the tires broke loose immediately when the pedal went down.

So...that's the story. There is a slight bit of power available by going to euro timing but it will in no practical way be noticeable. I suspect that if you managed to have two totally identical cars, the euro timing car would be able to pull away very slightly from the US timing car but the difference at the end of, say, 1/4 mile would probably be measured in less than a car length. But I admit I'm just guessing at that.

FWIW, I'd bet money that if you have to pass an emissions test in the US, the euro timing won't. The good thing is that it's very easy to do (or undue). Mine has been at Euro timing since I did that several years ago.

If you do a search, you should be able to find the post that verifies which computer pin needs to be grounded.

 

Mike996,

Thank you for taking the time to describe your experience.

Skipp

 

My guess is the 10 hp bump in power the Euro cars comes from the lack of a converter. The Euro timing is probably meant to work in conjunction with that.