are you tripping over your ego by some chance... there is nothing being claimed, no right or wrong, just responding to comment made during broadcast, just opining about using the regs as a means to get around making weather decisions, if safety equipment is rendered unuseable
Deutsche TV just reported from Bianchi's hospital. His family has arrived from France and there is an FIA spokesman on site. He is described to be in serious condition but no details were released.
it's not only about lifting a mass that is just balanced. it is also about accelerating that mass. The more mass there is, the more inertia. F1 car or not, give a 12ton thing a knock with your head next time you come around one and see that that thing won't move an inch. Inertia, acceleration... that is where the energy goes in. And if that energy is finding it's path through someone's helmet then there is some trouble going to happen.
That's what I thought. All this BS about the helicopter not being able to fly seems to be exactly that, BS. Whether it could fly or not seems irrelevant at this point. Mark
After watching those videos and gauging what size that machine is, I can tell you that machine weighs around 16,000 kg with the capacity to pick up 9000 kg 4 metres into the air. Lifting the 600 kg F1 car 1 metre off the ground wouldn't have made it hardly any easier at all for the rear to lift off the ground from Bianchi crashing into it. The solid steel counter weight at the rear of the machine that Bianchi crashed into weighs 2200 kg alone. The engine, transmission and convertor are also in the rear of the machine to keep the majority of the weight back there. I understand what you're saying in regards to fulcrums and pivots. These machines pick up 9000 kg safely, without the rear wheels lifting off the ground as that is what they are designed to do. 9000 kg is the Safe Work Limit. (SWL) I see these machines operate daily and my job is to service and repair them. I have seen the rear wheels lift off the ground, but they were lifting more than 9000 kg. Here is a little more info if you're interested. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143432148-post469.html
That is sad news, really feeling for his family and friends right now..I can only hope and wish for a speedy recovery for him, I have no doubt he has youth and fitness on his side, fingers crossed.
They need that big a machine? As smaller unit would be less dangerous, more maneuverable and quicker.
Nobody is suggesting that the impact was *gentle* on Bianchi's head. I'm only pointing out that the back wheels of the tractor being "lifted" off the ground, is much less a 'dramatic' observation when you consider the F1 car being lifted by the front crane. Had there not been an F1 car suspended by the front crane, i doubt we'd have seen the rear tractor wheels lifted off the ground ... and, as a result, the impact to Bianchi may have been much worse. Imagine a simple experiment : try to lift a one-ton weight, with an upward force of 200 pounds. It won't budge. It won't move at all, no matter how long (in time) you apply that force. The upward acceleration will be zero ... not small, but zero. Now, balance that one-ton weight with an upward force of exactly one-ton before you apply a lifting force. Your lifting force, no matter how small, will now accelerate that mass upwards ... perhaps slowly, but the heavy object will now move upwards. Also ... I certainly understand conservation of momentum in a collision, including the masses involved. The crane moves 'upward' quite slowly, due to its significantly larger mass ... compared to the object with much less mass, but higher velocity, striking it. All i'm saying is this : The impact was SEVERE. But the F1 car suspended on the front crane not only reduces the "apparent severity" of the impact (crane wheels lifting) ... but that suspended car *may* have actually helped save Bianchi's life.
How long is the lever arm? Weights alone, do not tell the whole story. I believe you ... they are designed to lift 9000 kg off the ground safely, without the rear wheels lifting. At what lever arm length (or crane extension)? Also ... just removing *some* of the weight off the rear wheels of the crane ... even if you're not completely "suspending" those rear wheels in the air ... helps reduce the impact to the driver. It simply means that less force is ultimately required to move (lift) those rear wheels of the crane ... and that's a good thing, for protecting a driver in an impact like this. We WANT those rear wheels of the crane to move, or lift, on a collision like this. And it's simply easier to accomplish that goal, with an F1 car suspended on the front. Again ... NOBODY is suggesting that the impact wasn't severe !!! Best wishes, for a full & speedy recovery.
Huh? WTF? I'm sorry, but your post above did make some pretty serious (law suit worthy if true) claims. "You heard it on TV" is, as I said, fair enough. But, I think it's only right that everyone reading your post understands a lot of it was mistaken at best. Cheers, Ian PS - Another example is German TV (at least) reported he'd been airlifted out. They too were wrong. That's fine, no harm no foul.
A PHD is not required to see you are both 'spinning' a web. How about, out of respect for Jules, you both take a time out? Tell me to STFU for saying what others are thinking thus helping me prove my point. Chill guys.
Bianchi hit the crane with the front end of his car and went under it. There is no protection for the drivers head in a forward hit. The helmet took the crushing blow. Even current helmet technology can only take so much. The fact that he is even alive is a miracle. I hope this doesn't result in another Michael type injury, and we all know by now that injury is going nowhere and should have been let to run its natural course.
I'll try this one last time ... In a collision such as this, you want the tractor to MOVE. You want the tractor to move vertically, and/or laterally, to help minimize the impact/energy to the driver. Even if the tractor moves a fraction-of-an-inch, it's better ... MUCH better .... than not moving at all. One problem (certainly, not the ONLY problem) is, there is a "threshold" of force required to get the rear of that tractor moving. There's a gravitational force on those rear tires that must be overcome before the tractor tires move vertically, and there's a friction force on those same tires that must be overcome before the tractor tires move laterally. Reducing the weight on those rear tires helps both. Reducing weight lowers the "threshold" or "barrier" to movement ... reducing weight means that less force is required to move the tractor's rear tires ... either vertically, or horizontally (or both). How significant is the F1 car dangling by the crane out front? It certainly helps the cause ... it reduces the weight on the rear tires of the tractor. And it does so, through a fortunate lever-multiplication factor : if the lateral "lever arm" from the front crane to the tractor's center-of-gravity is, say, 4 times longer than the lateral "lever arm" from the rear tires to the tractor's center-of-gravity, than every 1 pound on the crane reduces weight on the rear tires by 4 pounds. The dangling F1 car helps the cause, no doubt about it. Does it somehow magically remove any & all concerns of a driver's head, in a helmet, impacting the crane at approx 50mph? OF COURSE NOT. The collision was SEVERE. I'm not trying to be a jerk, honestly. Just offering the observation that it's better to have the F1 car dangling out front, than not ... if moving the rear of that tractor is your goal. Best wishes to Bianchi, for a full recovery! I'm out.
Totally agree werewolf. You're right. I was concerned when I saw the medical car go out with the safety car. I was surprised that the announcers didn't notice that--or at least they didn't say anything if they did notice it. Usually Matchett in particular would have pointed that out. When I saw that AMG wagon go out on track, that's when I was concerned.....
Everything you said makes sense from the physics perspective. However, I don't think the objective is to 'move the rear end of that tractor' is it? The ultimate objective would be he can't hit it. As we've now unfortunately seen, without a complete rethink of the way cars have been (successfully) moved for decades, we can't guarantee that. That it had a car hanging off the front, and that 'encouraged' it to move some, may just have saved his life I guess.... (You noted that earlier, right?) Maybe some kind of energy absorbing skirt is the best bet? Any other ideas? Regards, Ian
In return, I will first say that I'm not trying to be a jerk or to be argumentative... But...the way they hoist the car greatly diminishes the effect you describe. Because it is hanging from a tether, the car is hoisted up and rearwards (toward the cab of the tractor). It looks to be very well thought out...it gets the load high enough to clear the fences & it shifts the already minimal load rearwards; both things that will allow the operator to get back behind the fence ASAP. Technically speaking your argument is correct. Practically speaking I can't believe it matters. Modern medicine and preparation are the real winners. Not long ago that accident was guaranteed fatal...there was no time to get to a hospital. Thanks to Dr. Sid, et.al., there was a hospital on site.
nah... the weather was horrible. outside of military / coast guard types, no one flies a helicopter in weather like that (I was the medical director for a helicopter EMS program for 7 years - I know a bit about the aviation part). The pilots make the call. Does NOT matter ONE BIT who the patient is. Dangerous to fly = no fly. 5-10 million dollar helicopter, 2-4 crew members, plus a patient... weather has to be decent to risk all that. and your right... probably irrelevant anyways. Medical team got to him promptly, probably secured his airway, cervical spine, etc. and FWIW... I work at COTA during the races as a doc. The preparation is huge, the facilities are great. For F1, when the cars are on track, there is always 2 ER docs, 1 orthopedic surgeon, and one neurosurgeon at the main medical building (at the end of pit lane). Multiple RN's and techs as well.
*Certainly* not looking to argue, but the medi helicopter did fly - It left while Jules was in the medical center!..... This led some journos to (incorrectly) report that he'd been airlifted out. Understood, and wow!... The breadth of experience & knowledge here is *stunning*! Very cool! Have you read Prof Sids book? He's the one that mandated all that stuff, and the staffing requirements too; He tells one story of, IIRC, Germany of all the surprising places, where the single doc on duty was something like a plastic surgeon! He and his buddies treated it like a fun little vacation! Needless to say, he was *not* a happy camper, and that all changed the following year.... Anyway, another completely shameless attempt at blagging a pitpass for one of the days - Any chance?..... All I have at the moment is the flights, and I'm still "dithering" as I *really* want to spend at least one day around the garages, but just cannot justify the Paddock Club. Feel free to tell me to bugger off, but as I said, I'm shameless here! Cheers, Ian
I'm also sure you know the answer - I meant to also ask if the rule remains in place that if the choppers can't fly, the cars can't run, correct? It was COTA last year that FP1 or 3 got delayed due to fog I believe. I'm pretty sure that was another Prof Sid rule. Cheers, Ian
