Ok so I don't want to make a part just like the photos. There is an aluminum version of this exact part available but it's over $120 and these readily available plastic ones are $3.00. I'm looking for a more reasonable solution to solve the issue of keeping this part from warping over time between the three bolt hold down points and thus the O-ring that's underneath loses it's ability to seal. I was thinking of using a steel or aluminum clamp over piece on top of this to hold the entire piece flat. It would need to follow the outside pattern with the three ears closely though it could be a bit oversized and the interior portion would need to just be a circle cutout between 1.25 - 2.0" in diameter. I think a simple circle ring with an OD of 4" and ID of 1.25-2.0 might work but it would look quite awful. Properly located bolt holes need to be drilled as well. What's the best and least expensive way to fabricate this? I think aluminum might end up being too thick & expensive whereas plain steel would require additional finishing. But stainless might just be the simplest? So what gauge and how do I do this? Thanks. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Depending on where it is located and accessability, another option might be to buy 20 of the plastic parts for just the half price of one alloy part. And to replace it anually or whenever a service is due anyway.
That's a per piece price and two are needed per car. This could end up sell in the hundreds if it's reasonable enough. It's also a PITA to keep dealing with this as it causes other issues besides just a leak. I'm looking for a how to suggestion and not necessarily a turnkey solution. I was thinking scanning it them something like this or is the setup going to thousands of $$$. Dynamic Water Jet Cutting for Stainless Steel Plate & Sheet | Penn Stainless Products Other ideas?
Looks a suitable candidate for 3D printing using one of the metal options but I'm not sure what the cost of output for a component this size would be. A simple metal ring might just spread the load sufficiently to make a difference.
McMaster-Carr Possibly??? McMaster-Carr These are probably overkill on the thickness: McMaster-Carr McMaster-Carr
Yes that's what I meant. I'm not looking for a complete replacement of the part. That's already been accomplished. I guess a good proof of concept would be using the washers I listed and then it that works get a nicer shape specific piece made up and hopefully for less than $120 each if I can order enough of them. I think I could sell 50 of them. Eventually ... Then again ... if I were to trace the outline on one of these washer and cut it on saw of some sort that I don't even have LOL that might be a decent home brew job if cleaned up enough?
Whenever I need a one-off part and I don't want to pester someone to make it for me, I design it with eMachineshop's CAD software, then get them to make it. Their prices are pretty outrageous for even simple pieces, but the self-satisfaction you get from designing it yourself, and it works, offsets the high cost somewhat (unless it doesn't fit ): Custom Online CNC Machine Shop | Free CAD Software Their software is a doddle to use too, and I'm a confirmed CAD hater.....
I'm assuming this is a type of bulk head pass thru for coolant, i.e. to heatercore ? I've got to agree with Dave, for a qty count less then equal to 50 it's not worth the hassle if someone else has an aluminum replacement for $120. No matter how you cut it, trying to make something else is going to cost more then that. 3D printing is not an option for parts in environments like coolant passages,fuel etc. of engines unless you step up to laser sintered materials and casting, and that's ungodly expensive! The very least would be a ring flange with a welded nipple thru it, but whats welding cost and time to source and fab, and cost of materials going to be? my guess? still more then $120 a pop. You can't ignore your hourly cost rate here. But if you want to do it for sheer poops and giggles, then don't let us naysayers stop you I've had my share of "I'm gonna do it my way, no matter what!" I call it field experience
No it's a crankcase breather. I want to be sure that people read my explanation. I AM NOT TRYING TO REPRODUCE THE PART IN THE PHOTOS, just augment it! I think the big washer idea has merit as the material cost is about $5, it's already the proper dimension and it's stainless! Drill three holes (whicj I can do) and it should work. To make it the proper outlined shape with the three ears would be best done how?
You are on a Ferrari website and are complaining that a custom part costs $120? Just regular Ferrari parts can have extremely high prices, like a set of fuel injectors for an F40 costing a cool $17,000. We regularly have custom parts made, some of them costing thousands of dollars, but they are for multi-million dollar cars. I would just buy the aluminum parts and stop thinking about it. How much is your time worth?
Oh thank you very much that was so F'ing helpful. Just go away OK? BTW, there are other vehicles discussed here even some rather inexpensive Ferraris by comparison. Not everyone is so willing to be so stupid with their money when they don't have to do so. I feel sorry for your clients. For everyone else thanks for the suggestions so far.
How closely do you need to follow the outside contours, how thick can your reinforcement be, and what tools do you have available? You wouldn't be asking if you had access to a lathe and milling machine, so I see two options: 1) Start with a piece of aluminum plate. Work it to shape with a hacksaw, a cylindrical grinder bit in a power drill, and files. It will come out looking pretty good, but unless you're willing to count the time spent towards the entertainment budget instead of a cost, count the pride of creation as an asset, and don't have to buy more tools you will end up way behind the $120 purchase. (Nonetheless, that's what I'd do if I had the time, and if there was room for a sufficiently thick piece of aluminum). 2) Find a washer of suitable dimension, carefully mark and centerpunch the locations of the bolt holes, then drill (If your drill bit doesn't go through the washer like butter, that's God's way of telling you not buy cheap drill bits - a hardware-store cobalt bit will do the trick, the loss-leader Vermont American steel bit at the same hardware store probably not). Clean up both faces with sandpaper on a flat surface. Total cost will be under $10 plus two hours of your time, and the job will look like that's what you spent on it.
Robert, maybe he did not say it smoothly, but the point is, most have no clue what it takes to make stuff. That said, see my first post
I'm fully aware of what he and others are trying to say along that line. It's been said a few times now. All wanted is some technical info about how. I'm a big boy and can figure out the cost benefit ratio. He wasn't crude. He was nasty, rude and arrogant and not at all helpful. You do meet some like that once in a while but why he insisted on going out of his way to do so is stupefying. He tarnishes Ferrari owners when acts like that. Most everyone I've met on here are great. Please don't apologize for behavior like that. Now let's forget about his comments. Back on point. I can make the prototype in a half hour with a $5 washer. I'll do that and see if it solves the problem but I probably won't know for quite some time ... LOL Seems like it should but I've been fooled before. Oh and I'm retired, this is a long term car I've owned that's a hobby/affliction. I DON'T HAVE TO MAKE MONEY DOING THIS! That was for Motob. Dave, I'd shoot myself before I'd pay someone $120 a piece for what I'm describing. I get things done more reasonably than that but not close in to the NYC metro area. Wrong place to fish. But your answer is one of the ones I wanted hear. Thank you.
See, now here's another one that starts off pretty reasonably. I'm OK with the first paragraph but he probably should have read more of the thread so see my comments about using a SS washer. That's far less expensive for a proof of function test than .25" aluminum. Unless you have it on hand and I don't. But then the second one gets ugly with quasi insults. You'd think I was some goober with a battery operated drill from Harbor Freight, a crescent wrench and a pair of vice grips attempting this job! Not a lot of diplomatic people on here today.
This is a common enough shape that some vendor may already have a reinforcement plate/hold down in stock, assuming the holes are evenly spaced along the diameter. Heck, even a 3 bolt exhaust header flange may work (albeit a bit thick) You might try searching '3 bolt flange' or something similar, and specify the bolt circle and hole diameter. Scientific supply companies come to mind - lots of flanges to seal in labs. I would try a 12 gauge (.10") thickness to start. Another really low tech idea would be to use thin washer that fits just within the bolt circle, lay it over top of the plastic piece, then used flanged head bolts to hold it in place. The bolt heads will contact the outer edge of the washer and secure it. The inner diameter of the washer just needs to clear whatever hose you clip over the nipple.
hmm,crankcase breather... what's the material it's attaching to made of? reason I ask is that most engines get hot enough on the cylinder head to cause issues where you have two materials of differing expansion rates, unless this is off the block directly? Don't know the engine configuration you're dealing with. As most breathers are a simple push-lock hose affair and this one sports a flange repleat with screws, I wonder why. Does it get up to around 210F? direct or splash oil exposure?
I would just add a separate L-section, annular, stiffening ring / flange (made of suitable thickness in steel) around the bolt circle --- captured by all (3) bolts. You can probably find something as an already fabbed piece somewhere for cheap --- then you will only need to drill the (3) bolt clearance holes in it. Total cost should be a couple of bucks per unit + the cost of the plastic part you have already sourced. Something like this (cross-section) as an example ----- K.I.S.S. Image Unavailable, Please Login
How many do you want? I would go the abrasive water jet route. It will do the holes too. You draw a 2-D outline of your part using almost anything (AutoCAD, Illustrator, CorelDraw, whatever) and having the guy at the job shop import, scale and lay out your design. This isn't going to require CATIA.
As mentioned, I think the washer (316 stainless 0.15"-0.22") I found might be enough to test this out. If it's nearer to .22" I would think that's thick enough??? I don't think an l shaped piece is required if it's done in steel. But a 4" diameter cup with a hole cut in the center would work if it were only 1/4-3/8" deep. Even 1/2" Opinions on the thickness required for a flat piece of stainless? That's what I was thinking if the prototype works properly. Then I'll have to see if enough folks want the darn things at $xx. This seems like a pretty simple shape? I assume you'd use sheet SS as trying to do this to a blank washer such as I've selected would not work?
Bob --- The problem (potentially) with a flat ring / washer is that you will be clamping down on the plastic part in between the ring and whatever this mounts to (engine block I assume ?), which will want to deform near each bolt, and then distort the steel ring locally. That could affect the sealing. The L-shape prevents this. That said, if you are not bolting it down too tightly, a flat ring should be okay --- as a swag (without knowing bolt size, torques, and loading on the part), I would think 0.15" should be plenty. Is the stock washer you've found available in fully-hardened (or even 1/2 or 3/4 hardened) stainless ? That would really cinch it with the increased stiffness. As for production.... Water jet or laser cutting (typically cheaper than water jet) would work with either starting from flat stock or with modifying a washer stock. But, if you are going to make a lot of them...... punching the parts with a soft tooling approach (no custom dies) would be the cheapest and fastest method to crank out a bunch of them. If you end up punching, however, you will want to use standard temper, then post treat to the hardened condition (if needed) which will add some cost. Whereas water or laser cutting can handle the stock material already in a fully hardened condition with no additional cost. So, you would really have to do a quick cost study to see which is most economical in the longer run.
What's happened with this stock part is that it's warped due heat and not clamp load IMHO. The O-ring which is a tad larger than 2 mm in diameter sitting in a 2 mm deep groove is being compressed by 10-15/1000 ". I have a hard time imagining that a steel washer of .22" (hopefully) is going to warp due to the compression stress at the three bolting points even if it isn't hardened? I'm not sure if that's an available option, probably not at $5? The way I'm envisioning the purpose of this solution is not allowing for enormous clamp loads with this add on piece but just to prevent the heat warpage of the plastic piece underneath it. BTW, the plastic breather does not distort badly in several directions. If it was fiber reinforced I think it might even have worked? Of course I may be completely wrong hence the $5 test. As many have already noted if it ends up getting too elaborate or expensive then the cast and heat treated aluminum piece for $120 each would be a lot more realistic so me at least. The thing is that most folks I talk to about this balk at that amount, yes their frugal, err, ah OK cheap! They just keep buying the plastic part I suppose? And thanks for the input, especially on the production side!
Roberto. Having faricated some parts in my little shop, try to make the ring a half inch thick-aluminum and use longer retaining bolts. It will never warp and will be cheap. Also will look like a good custom piece.
