Hamilton v Rosberg Thread | Page 6 | FerrariChat

Hamilton v Rosberg Thread

Discussion in 'F1' started by IamRobG, Oct 15, 2014.

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  1. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    I'm fine with it all being in one thread. Never bothers me. Others bring up the topic on other threads and I simply have to stop by with my pov. I just don't get why none of you see the light...should be damn clear that Lewis is better than nico by now.
     
  2. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't have a problem with Lewis being better (at driving) than Nico...if he is.....and since Lewis has more points, then I'd say he probably is.

    THAT's not the problem!
     
  3. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    That's a bit rude, don't you think?
     
  4. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    I do not think that the WDC will be decided by the fact Hamilton is a much better driver but by the fact Rosberg does much more mistakes...The change came in Hungary and although one can debate for hours whether the team order was justified or not it is easy to see that what happened broke the neck of Rosberg. As he thinks he has to proove something since then there was not a single race without a mistake of him after that so it looks like he does show nerves...
    As this is his first shot on the WDC one could compare that with the first season of Hamilton where he screwed the WDC in the last two races as well because of his nerves...

    Furthermore a question to toil as he always points out that one has to look into the results and how they where achieved rather than just the points:
    In 2008 Massa had more DNF than Hamilton, furthermore he was one of the bereaved of the "Piquet-Crash". Hamilton won by chance in the last corner in the rain of Brasil, does this make him by your own standards an undeserved WDC?
     
  5. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I think I know the answer :)
     
  6. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    I guess me as well :)
     
  7. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    Might as well share the insults around rather than them all landing on me.

    Don't mistakes count towards who is a better driver? I would think that they do. An analysis of the 1-2s is all you really need. When they both start in a similar position and both finish its basically always Hamilton who is victorious.

    As for 2008; you are comparing apples with oranges. They raced in different cars and imo the ferrari was the better car. Comparisons of that nature are far more effective in intra team mate battles.

    But even if we entertain that thought; iirc in one of the races massa spun all on his own and then later on crashed Into coultard causing them both to retire. In the other he spun off again by himself and retired because of it. So to answer your question; yes an analysis of the races is relevant. But given the cause of massas DNFs (himself) - no he did not deserve the wdc lol. One must analyse the cause of the dnfs as well obviously. But good to see you thinking outside the box and coming up with arguments ;)
     
  8. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

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    No, it is not just the "1-2" that counts, you are making it to easy for yourself.
    No this is the normal case. In the rarest case a car is that superior like the Mercedes that the first and second of the WDC standing are in the same team. You are looking for a way to find out the best driver of the season no matter what car they are driving. You are looking for a system that gives the best driver justice and you can not change that system year by year depending whether they are team mates or not. Furthermore "imo the Ferrari was the better car" is again just a guess that suits your oppinion but far away from a fact. But keep this example and think for a moment you are right and the cars were not equal: how other than just counting the points could you crown a WDC to make it fair even if the point also include the abilities of the car? A voting in the paddocks who deserves it most???
    Counting points is the only objective way to do so.

    That is all true but when you take the point system you were referring to in the case of Senna with "discard results" (what is the English word for that?) then it does not make difference. Especially as it is sometimes difficult to see the difference between the driving error and the machanical failure. Best example is Hamilton in Canada: it was obviously a failure in the car but nevertheless Rosberg finished the race with the same issue so the DNF of Hamilton was without doubt caused by the car but avoidable at the same time by Hamilton as shown by his team mate.
    The only thing you obviously avoided in your reply was the Singapore GP...It is strange that you always refer to Monaco and Spa when it comes to Rosberg although both incidents were not prosecuted by the official but you ignore something that was officially uncovered and led to a ban of the resposibles...
     
  9. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I think the fact that toil referred to Nico as "cheatberg" a few days ago is all anyone needs to know about toil's lack of balance on the subject.

    If one driver is better than the other, it certainly isn't by a huge amount. Sometimes one wins, other times the other....not just in qualy, but in the races too. Of course only one can win overall, but it sure isn't a one sided fight. If I was driving the other Mercedes, I'm pretty sure Lewis would beat me in all practice sessions, qualifying and the race. I doubt toil will see the point I'm making there.

    At the end of the day, either one would have won the WDC in the Mercedes. The difference between the two of them is negligible and toil can't stand it because it doesn't suit his argument.
     
  10. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    I agree with you that there is more to it than the 1-2. I was merely trying to simplify things because barely anyone wants to analyse things like I do.

    I also agree that the dominance by one team is somewhat of an anomalous situation. It will always be inherently more difficult to assess the performance of drivers from different teams than it will be to assess intra-team battles. How much can one attach to the driver and how much to the car? In terms of saying the 08 ferrari was better than the 08 Mac; kimi massa and Hamilton have all been team mates with alonso. Hamilton beat alonso and the other two got the snot kicked out of them. Who drove for ferrari in 2008? Kimi and massa. Of course all of this is subjective but as long as one can justify their opinion and provide reasons for it then it's all fair game in my book. Drivers performance can of course change year to year but we have to go on the data we have. Points are a good objective measure and of course it would be ludicrous to decide a championship based on a vote - but when your modus operandi is "points are all that matters and whoever has the most points is the rightful winner" and that is solely what you stand for then that is a far too simplistic view. As you say yourself, any analysis will always have a subjective element. But having a discussion and raising valid points is how you obtain a better understanding. That is all we can do...


    Counting the best 11 results wasn't all that bad actually...it had the benefit of removing outliers that could skew the figures. Like Hamilton starting from the back of the grid or a mechanical dnf. Then again it punishes a consistent driver. If i were in charge of the f1 governing body I would discount all dnfs caused by mechanical failure and calculate an average for reach driver based on the races they completed. Obviously you would need to meet an initial threshold and you would an elaborate set of regulations that define what counts as a mechanical failure and what is driver error. I would keep the constructors seperate and have it include all race results thereby providing a disincentive to teams to fabricate dnfs to influence their averages.


    As for Canada; nico changed his settings after Hamiltons car failed and through the benefit of hindsight managed to nurse the car to the end. He deserved the points no more than ham did (actually slightly less given he was behind him).

    With regard to Singapore; I'm not sure what you are referring to. Nico had a faulty steering column didn't he? 100% mechanical DNF just like say hams in Australia or his brake failure/fire in qualy. I count that into the statistics just like everything else. It's 5-2 on reliability in my book based on what wasn't in the drivers control
     
  11. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    #136 toil, Oct 19, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014
    My lack of balance? Says the guys who make fun of Lewis's fashion and everything else whenever they can. There's even walk on water jokes and giggles about his dog in this very thread. Don't have to look far for comments about his hair, sun glasses, tattoos etc either. And you Peter are the first to giggle at all of those.

    The difference is negligible in qualy. I've admitted that long ago. But not in races. The fact that Lewis has suffered multiple hardships in qualy makes the races look more even to the simple minded. Yes. But if you confine it to races they both finished and both started in a comparable grid position then ham is utterly dominant. Finishing ahead in all but one; wins by 17,18,15 and 13 secs. Bahrain would've been similar if the sc hadn't wiped his lead out. You continually overlook this every time. One only has to go back to my 'rosberg is scared...' Thread to see most of my predictions and analysis have all been on point.

    People said nico is good under pressure. I said he's never been under pressure because hams misfortune is winning the championship for him. The moment he faces a little pressure; he overshoots at monza twice and ruins a lead that was gifted to him due to hams car problems, tries to win Sochi in the first corner and ruins his race.

    I also said that when ham and nico start together and both finish ham will win every time due to his superior racecraft. Hasn't been a single race since making that point that I've been proven wrong....
     
  12. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    yawn

    It's a close call, and that's a fact.
     
  13. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    You always "yawn" when it's clear that I'm right. Glad logic is getting through to you Peter.
     
  14. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I wouldn't know, because you've never been right. I'm yawning because it's midnight.
     
  15. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Firstly, Nico broke his own neck, taking his team mate out.

    Secondly, in Spa 2008 Hamilton having his win taken off him by a total and utter ridiculous overrule by that dickhead Mosley, stripping him of his win artificially altered the WDC race, and there were also other pathetic rule judgements that year, to Mclarens/Hams detriment, but however to Massa's benefit.

    Thirdly Glock was on the wrong tyres in the last race in Brazil, it's that simple.

    I really don't get this Hate Hamilton gets, either be discrediting his achievements, to how he dresses ect, anyway get back to the voodoo dolls, your going to need them.
     
  16. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    You don't sleep.
     
  17. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Look in the mirror and you'll see the answer.
     
  18. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    Quoting this so he can see it. Not sure if you're still on his ignore list or not lol
     
  19. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Ok...it's true....I'm yawning because toil is boring.

    There's an old rule of sales.....you have to learn when to shut up....when you don't shut up, you end up talking yourself out of the sale.

    That's what you and toil have done.

    I hope you can understand the analogy. If you can't, I'll explain the morning.
     
  20. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Whose ignore list? Not mine...I don't have one! I'd hate to miss out on anything.
     
  21. toil

    toil F1 Rookie
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    56000 posts? I wonder how many sales you've taken yourself out of...
     
  22. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I must look like you then ..get some sleep ;)
     
  23. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Haha I'll give you that.
     
  24. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I think that you three need a thread of your own.
     
  25. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I understand mate, only too well, however I'd put it differently.

    Sometimes there is only one thing that you can provide....it's your absence ;)
     

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