Breakdown Sunday.... | FerrariChat

Breakdown Sunday....

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Colorado308, Oct 19, 2014.

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  1. Colorado308

    Colorado308 Rookie

    Sep 22, 2014
    23
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Brian D
    Took the 308 (1980, 2V, GTSi, 60K miles, just got it) for a mountain run today but didn't get far. Lost all my oil, ran the temp up, and lost the belt for the water pump and alternator....Bad Day

    Started off with a strange over-rev - like the throttle was sticking slightly between shifts and revving another 2K RPMS higher before settling back down. A blip of the throttle would bring it back to normal, but odd.....seemed fine after a few minutes but not quite right. Started up the twisties, happily shifting thru the gears and after abot 10 minutes I look back (out of my now oil covered back window) only to see that I am crop dusting the road with blue smoke....oil pressure gauge flashes red once, temp gauge starts to climb. I turn around quickly, kill the engine and coast down the hill....engine running fine when I killed it. No ugly/abnormal noises, nice even 1K idle.

    Not sure what happen, but here is what I find:

    - Rear deck lid is COVERED in oil....as is the TOP of the engine...seems strange, as if the oil came UP, but maybe that's part of airflow design?

    - Belt for Water Pump & Alternator gone...figure maybe it got coated in oil, began to slip, and snapped or slipped and burnt thru. Water pump turns as it should. Have not checked alternator yet but the Water Pump & Alternator light did come on right before I killed everything.

    - Coolant is fine, no milkyness or anything else - not worried here (yet)

    - Dipstick is hanging 2-3 inches up out of the tube....wasn't that way when I checked the fluids before I left...seems really odd. Could the oil have been pushed up and out the tube? Spray pattern on underside of deck lid seems to support this, but how?

    - i had changed the air filter earlier, and did make the mistake of leaving off the hose that goes to the bottom of the air cleaner housing. The other hose presumably from the other side of the engine goes into the base of the body of the air intake side of the fuel injection body. The hose I left off was crimped since I had tucked it out of the way for cleaning the aft timing belt cover. I believe the hose is part of an EGR system (or possibly a PCV system?)

    So, I'm not sure what happened. Obviously the oil came from some breach - could it have come up and out the dipstick tube, caused by increased internal engine air pressure from the crimped EGR/PCV tube? I'll need to check everything while I am in there replacing the belts (probably do the timing belts and tensioners etc while in there) but any ideas on what could've happened are welcome. Thanks in advance for the assistance.
     
  2. jmaz

    jmaz Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2011
    350
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Wow, really sorry to hear that this happened. Could you tell if it was pushing a cloud of blue smoke out the exhaust, or just burning off oil that sprayed onto hot surfaces? (Hopefully the latter.)
     
  3. Colorado308

    Colorado308 Rookie

    Sep 22, 2014
    23
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Brian D
    Just off the engine - not out of the exhaust best I can tell. Oil on exhaust was smoking like hell, but not from exhaust pipe outlets. (Note to self: buy a fire extinguisher for this car!)
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    I suspect that the plugged breather hose pressurized the crankcase and blew some oil out the dipstick tube. Clean things up and look it over carefully. You might only be 2 or 3 quarts of oil down. Reconnect the hose properly, refill the missing oil, fix the belt and you might be back in business.

    Be careful but don't over-react.
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,104
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Have a really good look at the front bank timing belt. The top of the dipstick tube is closer to that than the alternator belt.
     
  6. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,934
    Outside Detroit
    Full Name:
    Don the 16th
    It's too bad to hear about your misadventure with your new ride.
    I agree with what 2NA and Rifledriver said.
    Also, while you're cleaning up under there, take a look at that throttle cable and see if that's the reason for the throttle hanging. I've suffered a frayed cable before (on a carb car).
     
  7. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    Take a look at the position of the driver's floor mat as well. It's called "Italian Cruise Control" for a reason.
     
  8. Enzojr

    Enzojr F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2013
    14,001
    West of PDX
    Full Name:
    Tomy
    Recent oil filter change ?
    Way back on my 328 I changed the oil and filter, the rubber gasket dropped before the filter was tight and upon startup ... Say 2 min POP engine top washed in oil. That might explain the oil on top IF you recently changed the filter. Clueless on the other stuff you mentioned, dipstick and belt.
     
  9. vracer

    vracer Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2014
    1,098
    NorCal
    Full Name:
    Richard
    Pay whatever it costs to get "Halotron". You do not want to experience the joys of cleaning the residue of a "regular" extinguishing agent.
     
  10. vracer

    vracer Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2014
    1,098
    NorCal
    Full Name:
    Richard
    P.S. 2.5#; the 1.25# size may just 'scare' the fire.
     
  11. Colorado308

    Colorado308 Rookie

    Sep 22, 2014
    23
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Brian D
    Thanks everyone to the feedback and tips. Feeling a little stupid if all this was a result of that hose I failed to reconnect, but if it all turns out okay I'll take that feeling over major mechanical failure...I'll just put it in my "Lessons Learned" pile.

    Looks like the proper Water Pump & Alternator belt should be a Gates 7m950 or equivalent. Anybody able to confirm that for me?
     
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    Don't be too hard on yourself. It happens to the best of us. An engine is a big air pump. It moves a lot of air on the bottom side of the pistons. The blowby needs to be vented somewhere.
     
  13. cuneo

    cuneo Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 20, 2006
    2,469
    +1, a 3lb Halon saved my 355 6 months ago. Halon is supposedly no longer available
    but Halotron is almost as good and doesn't corrode aluminum, electrical connectors, etc.
     
  14. ME308

    ME308 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,550
    Munich, Germany
    Full Name:
    Michael
    look at it in a positive way ...

    most probaby, you did not damage anything further -
    and ... as far I as I remember nobody has yet reported that cause and the described chain of events - so everybody has learned something ... post pics of the repair ;)


    for your 1980 2V GTSi, yes
     
  15. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2007
    57,969
    Bavaria, The 'Other' Germany
    Full Name:
    Mark W.R.
    OP,

    Engine STAYING at a higher rev or sticking wide open.

    Assumiing it is not your floor mats (mine mats and others do this, there is a 'fix').


    '80-'81 and IIRC '82's have a potentially fatal flaw. It has been reported on here once, perhaps twice, before. Ferrari fixed it on the QV/328's.

    The event I mentioned was quickly solved by fast thinking, turning the key ONE CLINK to the left (counter-clockwise) and killing the engine but not locking the steering wheel. He saved his son and his car.

    The metal fuel lines for 1-4 "bundle" directly below the throttle assembly (body). There is precious little clearance between the two. IF ANY (or all) of your 1-4 lines at the injector end over time and with vibration, work their way upward, it is very possible for them to interfer with the throttle linkage and to even jam it open. I discovered this when I was changing injectors a few years ago.

    That is why I believe that with at least the '83's, Ferrari moved the 1-4 metal fuel line "bundle" location much further to the right (passenger's side) of the 1-4 Valve cover. They said absolutely nothing that I could find, but I suspect it was a safety "move."

    That is why on my car I am using the 308 metal fuel lines on the FD side (originality) and QV/328 metal lines on the injector side of the lines.

    It is so subtle a change, even a concourse judge (RifleDriver) might not catch it.
     
  16. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,707
    colorado
    Full Name:
    Giovanni Pasquale
    If indeed your dipstick tube was out of the hole, then you have an issue with positive crankcase ventilation. my 308 used to do this also. look at this system in your car.
     
  17. Badabing!

    Badabing! Formula Junior

    Mar 30, 2014
    731
    NYC
    i just bought 2 Halon extinguishers yesterday. A 5 lb and a 2.5 lb.

    i bought them from ABC Fire in NJ

    as soon as i told him i wanted halon and not halotron, he asked me if it was for a "classic car" lol

    they are not new though. they are used canisters (in very good condition) that he freshly charged with halon for me.
     
  18. Colorado308

    Colorado308 Rookie

    Sep 22, 2014
    23
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Brian D
    #18 Colorado308, Nov 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, I was finally able to wrap up the repairs today. Thanks for all the tips and advice. Followed all the steps on this site for accessing and replacing the alternator belt. Not a very fun job. Having to drain the coolant out just to replace an alternator belt was a new experience for me :). However, it did give me an excuse to do a flush and replace of the coolant, which it needed.

    I removed the heat shields which allowed me (sort of) access to the mounting bolts of the alternator. Not easy access and required the right combination of extensions and a swivel. As well as the right amount of profanity. While I was in there I went ahead and took off the timing belt covers to check out the belts. Relatively clean and appear in good shape. That said, I do not know when the PO replace these last so they will be done this winter. I also managed to crack the fuel line into the FD and had to fix that... Will likely be ordering the braided entire fuel line replacement kit from Unobtainium and do that the same time the belts are done. I also cleaned out the throttlebody and was able to free up some stickiness which was taking place on the throttle linkage and the throttle plate. Bought an engine steamer and cleaned off as much of the oil as I could but she still smoked a little bit while the residue burned off. All good now though.

    So back to the repair. Looks like I lost about 4-5 quarts of oil out the dipstick tube when the 'mishap' occurred. The belt had melted around the pulley of both the water pump and the alternator. Attached is a picture of what was left. Not much. Purchased two 7M975's
    (never travel without an extra) as well as a Gates Krikit belt tension guage and proceeded to skin knuckles, cuss, sacrifice a little blood to the Ferrari gods, and got it done. Took her for a "spirited" drive and she purred like a kitten.

    Thank you again everyone for the help and advice.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2009
    24,509
    Honolulu
    Full Name:
    Kevin

    This is great to read! Good job!
     

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