Hamilton v Rosberg Thread

Throw in the relatively poor reliability of the cars of the earlier eras too.

Comparing drivers across eras is at best an inexact excerise.

 

Oh now you're in trouble!

 

Forgive me if my post is somewhat disjointed. It gets increasingly hard to manage long posts when using my phone.

In terms of comparisons between drivers I would always compare how a driver faired against another in equal machinery. Comparing how many points one driver got in a Ferrari in say 2007 to how many points another driver got in a Ferrari in 2008 is much more difficult and unreliable. But if two drivers raced against each other in equal machinery the comparisons are usually accurate. Of course they are never definitive but they give us a good indication. Personally I give no allowances for "this car didn't suit me" type excuses.


It's not that I don't think massa deserves a wdc. I'm not saying that. Inherent in the question of who deserved to be 2008 wdc is you have to ask; did massa deserve the wdc OVER Hamilton? To which my answer would be a definitive no. For the amounts of wins Hamilton has it's ludicrous he still only has 1 wdc to his name. That has got to be a record (actually I think it is - he's the most statistically successful single world champion). Hopefully in a month or so he will be a double world champion. I'm not seeing it in black and White. I'm seeing it for what it is; for massa to have the 08 wdc the question you have to ask yourself is what I stated above.

Iirc ham gave the place back and that is all the rules require. Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada when defending his position and gained 2 seconds and did nothing to give that back and although it slightly irked me at the time it wasn't that big of a deal. Certainly more morally culpable than ham who actually gave the place back. If cutting a chicane and giving the place back and then slipstreaming your opponent was actually an effective way to gain places don't you think drivers would be doing it more often? Fact is ham cocked up but gave the place back in accordance with the rules and then passed the guy. You say i have blinkers but that's pretty straight forward imo.


I think you missed the point of my examples. If we are going to pretend Singapore didn't happen the way it did then we must also pretend that the misfortunes that befell Hamilton did not happen. So sure give massa a few more points in Singapore but have Mosley give Hamilton is win back and remove the bs grid penalties for nothing wrong etc. if you do that then no massa still would not have won.

That is your interpretation of Suzuka. I certainly do not share it. Hamilton comfortably followed nico at 1-2 secs distance and said he knew he had the pace to pass and was waiting for when to best attack. Nico was on the radio saying he was going "flat out". "Blistering" is of course subjective but general point is that in every wet race this season there has been a clear pattern. Of course I mention those races because they are the only ones where it rained. You may try and explain Suzuka away by saying rosberg couldn't switch his tires on (incidentally whose fault is that?) but how can you explain away all his other lacklustre rain performances.

You say my race simulation isn't credible enough to discuss yet provide no reasons? Seems very credible to me and everything I've said is grounded in fact and analysis.

None of us have said Lewis is the second coming. Half the grid could win a wdc in the 2014 merc I am not denying that. Maybe as a little refresher you should read over some of the comments made by others in some of the earlier races this season or in my rosberg is scared thread. People claiming nico is the better driver and taking credit away from Lewis for basically everything. Saying he is hotheaded and inconsistent and flat out denying his superior racecraft despite the overwhelming evidence. They would fail to recognise his bad luck and even had the gall to suggest it was his own fault relying on the overused aphorism "you make your own luck". Now I call that blinkers. Now the tide is slightly turning and some are conceding ham is "marginally better" than rosberg. Ha.

Truth of the matter is i have no blinkers. I openly admit that nico has blistering pace in qualifying and that between the two it's always close. I think it's something like 6-9 (probably not actually but cbf to look it up) to nico but if we take away Lewis's qualy reliability failures it makes it a damn close battle. The races are admittedly a more one sided affair. Take car failures out of the equation and it looks quite one sided indeed. How many of you won't admit to that?

Where Lewis deserves credit is through how he has overcome the terrible luck thrown at him this season against a very credible and consistent opponent and clawed his way back. With Vettel his team mates car broke down every second race and in terms of skill I don't rate webber as highly as Rosberg. Ham has won races in every season even in a mediocre car. The moment Vettel gets a car that isn't a second quicker than the field and he falls apart. He may be able to win from the front but he doesn't look like a fighter to me. The people with blinkers are the ones who refuse to give ham even a modicum of credit.


Ham is statically more successful than Clark and Stewart. More wins more poles more podiums. So yes he is the most successful British driver ever.

 

ouch... These narrow minded Rosberg fans are beyond my understanding. Why does he hate Hamilton so much to post such things??

 

I believe I did say he is the most successful British driver ever. That point holds true. I never said he is the best British driver ever. Though if you were to ask me that question I would say its perhaps too soon to tell but he is definitely a contender.

There are factors on both sides of the equation; point out the deaths and lack of races per season sure but you should note the factors that militate towards f1 being harder in the modern era as well. consider the level of professional athletes today. Some of those guys didn't even do any exercise and smoked like chimneys. No chance a modern f1 driver would get away with that. The size of the f1 field has gotten smaller and the sport is much more competitive now if you want to get a seat (just think of the increase in world population alone yet number of seats remains static - actually no it hasn't it's gone down). It is all too easy to look back on the "good old days" through a sympathetic lense especially for you guys who are probably generations older than I but that doesn't make them better. Nor does it make modern f1 drivers better either. There are factors either way

 

Autosport only ranks Hamilton 17th and behind British drivers Mansell, Moss, Stewart and Clark. The poll was collected from 217 current and past Formula 1 drivers, I belive their evaluation is valid.

 

My views on most things are actually aligned with public opinion; well at least on the rosberg v Hamilton debate. Fchat is just a "special" bunch. Less races to do so means you can win a wdc with much less wins does it not? He is statistically more successful. You can't argue with that. And organisation and safety? No. I thought this conversation was strictly confined to on the track. My vision is not skewed. It is balanced. I clearly said there are factors going either way.


And I'm 24.

 

Poll was conducted in like what 2009? Maybe take another one in 20 years and see the results then. That is a completely unfair comparison given Hamilton had been in f1 for 2 years and some drivers had glorious 15 year careers in which to prove themselves

 

Interesting, although i dont think autosport is any more valid than any other opinions out there. I stopped buying that rag a few years back. However like any of the british press, they love knocking down success
IMO regardles of what the British press and haters say, i beleve LH will become the most successful British driver of all time anyway, i imean he is still driving and is breaking all British records.
I wonder when they will try to argue that LH is not the most successful Mercedes Benz driver in history
I personaly hope he wins this years world championship, then he will be the only WC driver on the grid with two WCs winning with two different manufacturers. The results and facts will speak for them selves and history will have been writen, no matter what arguments may occur on chat forums.
I also hope he ends his driving career at ferrari with another chance of winning yet another. My guess most of you would be having kittens

 

Why do you think that?

 

I say BS to that. If you're over 15, I'd be very surprised.

 

Perhaps do the same statistical breakdown for number of podiums? Might give you a slightly different result. Also go have a look at the tables on Wikipedia for "percentage wins". Most of the drivers in top ten are old school drivers. What does this reflect? Perhaps a lack of competition. I checked who Stewart raced against in his championship years and to put things nicely, he did not have much competition.

Other than that, I resent your condescending tone. How would you like it if somebody 6 years older than you spoke down to you like that? Not cool man. Guess I probably can't talk with some of my posts but I've never spoken badly to you before (usually just to aircon who insults me first),

 

yeah it is, and the fact that you don't see it, proves it!

 

lol...what? just because I pick up on all your BS doesn't equal insulting. The only person here who resorts to name calling and bullying here is you.

 

A 15 year old that writes far more eloquently than you?

Don't do yourself a disservice.

 

: ) THIS is entertainment

 

Like a crash reel is entertaining.

 

Keep your claim to fame. Knock yourself out.

It's not stupid. Championships are won on more than just wins. Ask keke rosberg. You claim that I know nothing yet you are willing to base everything on wins and think podiums are irrelevant? Interesting...

I meant to refer to his team mates. Obviously to be wdc you need a good car. He probably had a great car but his team mates were no namers who couldn't challenge him for wins. Excuse my lack of specificity

 

"There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics."
Mark Twain

 

Statistically I'd be more likely to live longer if I were a woman, that's why I'm changing sex

 

pictures or it hasn't happened.

 

Not trying to pile on Toil....but the cars guys drove back in Clark's and Stewart's days required HUGE stones, because there was a very real chance of fatality. The balance between driving fast versus safely is much more tipped to "fast" for today's drivers because the cars are so safe.

Nothing but mad respect for the drivers from the 60's-70's era. There are good books and movies on that era that are worth perusal. They really put everything on the line during a big growth period for F1.

Note that Francois Cevert was pegged to be a WDC had he not so tragically died at Watkins Glen in 1973.