Help me make this part? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Help me make this part?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by staatsof, Oct 8, 2014.

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  1. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Bob
    Thanks but for me at least I think that would quickly exceed the $120.

    If I had the machine tools or a friend with them and a piece of stock already on hand (though that's a lot more than $5) I could try that out too.
     
  2. Andrew D.

    Andrew D. F1 Rookie

    Jul 6, 2008
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    Goodwood Ontario
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    Andrew D.
    Yes,but if you want to make a bunch to sell, put the design on a CNC machine and make 100. Your cost would be low. I made a protoype suspension insert from derlin this way for Maserati suspensions,turned out 200 and sold a set of 6 inserts for $100 a set.
     
  3. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    586
    North east, USA
    Hello,

    I operate a machine shop that does mostly tool & die work. High quality close tolerance stuff, some parts at tight as .0004".

    I love f cars and have a 430 road car(3pedal) And a 360 challenge. I am also a bit tired of paying excessively for Maintainance parts. I make lots of stuff for my cars, have been thinking about selling them. I would make that 4 u, quantity of 20 should get u a price closer to what your looking for. We have 5axis cnc but won't need it for that item.

    If your serious and want 20 made out of aluminum-(6061 t6) will do the job, pm me.
     
  4. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    At this point your getting free engineering and design phase help, so let's run with it :D

    Are you trying to keep the plastic part?
    Is the 'O' ring a face, male or female? This is an important bit of information.
    Temperature range?

    If your trying to retain the plastic part and utilize a backing plate to keep the plastic from warping it may work if the warping is due to heat deformation alone. nylon blended parts suffer from hygroscopic swelling, i.e. they absorb water out of the air or environment, this means they will warp and move about in thermal cycles. glass filled plastics are better and the step above that is M0S2, 6/6 etc.. Point is, the plastic part most likely will continue to warp regardless of any backing plate above it. You could try a 'heat sink' design, like a large washer with radial grooves that mounts above, it provides a bit more stiff backing but also provides a way to shed heat to reduce thermal cycling.

    All out replacement part will need to incorporate an 'O' ring groove. if it's a face seal then that makes the part a bit more difficult to fab on the cheap. If it's male groove then it opens the door to a slew of cheaper options. running with the idea on an 'O' ring on the nipple would be to make a bracket with an -AN hole in the center and then you could add off the shelf fittings like a bulkhead pass thru and the only part you'd need to make is a flat washer with 4 holes, 3 mounting holes and one large center threaded one. But if it's a face sealing flange that won't work.

    'O' rings need to be compressed to work, static face seal rings esp need uniform compression. The groove is also highly important as well, to insure it stays sealed.
     
  5. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Isn't that the whiole point of posting here? :D

    Are you trying to keep the plastic part?
    Is the 'O' ring a face, male or female? This is an important bit of information.
    Temperature range?


    Yes the plastic part remains. It's an ordinary Buna-N O-ring retained in a groove on the back side (not shown) of that piece . I don't know the temperature range (think back side of a valve cover) but as I've already indicated the piece justs warps a bit (rises actually) between the retaining tabs. I've not noticed any twisting at all. This means the O-ring loses it's crush. That's the entire issue.

    If your trying to retain the plastic part and utilize a backing plate to keep the plastic from warping it may work if the warping is due to heat deformation alone. nylon blended parts suffer from hygroscopic swelling, i.e. they absorb water out of the air or environment, this means they will warp and move about in thermal cycles. glass filled plastics are better and the step above that is M0S2, 6/6 etc.. Point is, the plastic part most likely will continue to warp regardless of any backing plate above it. You could try a 'heat sink' design, like a large washer with radial grooves that mounts above, it provides a bit more stiff backing but also provides a way to shed heat to reduce thermal cycling.

    That may be way more thinking and effort than this worth. Hence the prototype. If it fails I'll just but the piece already available. I wish the plastic parts on my Jag engine received that much design consideration. They're plastic is feces grade.

    All out replacement part will need to incorporate an 'O' ring groove. No I'm not doing that, it's been done.

    'O' rings need to be compressed to work, static face seal rings esp need uniform compression. The groove is also highly important as well, to insure it stays sealed.

    Well now you gotten on to something. There's another issue with this design and that's that the groove is 2mm deep and 3.3 mm wide. The engineering information I've been given is that a crush of 10-15 /1000" is what's desirable. I couldn't find an exact match for that so I got as close as I could (more crush) and went with the soft Buna variety. Hopefully the additional clamping ring will do the trick. It's an inexpensive experiment.

    I don't know what the people who make the alternative part in aluminum did for an O-ring groove dimension. I suspect the part is a strict replication of the original part.

    My impression is that even without the warping the O-ring loses its memory enough over time so that one also loses the seal even without warpage. The used O-ting is not proud of the sealing surface of a new plastic breather. That to me is another issue. But if it takes a lot of years for that to happen I guess that's acceptable too.
     
  6. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
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    Perth WA
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    Pete K
    Interesting thread!
    considering the torque/pressure/warp of the plastic, have you considered casting a new part that would have the stiffener plate/washer in it that gave it torsional strength and offsets the flex caused by hear over time.

    Polyurethane comes in a full spectrum of shore ratings from jelly rubber to machinable plastic it is very versatile and the washer could be suspended in the silicon mold in the right position and treated with primer where the Pu bonds to it.

    The cost of materials is not overly expensive, however once the initial silicone casting has been taken off the master and you have the mold setup, the duplicates are mirror image. Hence the mods that are done to the master to improve the design (if necessary) are done before the 1st silicon mold is taken off it.

    From the look of the part mass wise; it would require using retardant to slow the curing time as the heat generated is exponential to the mass of mixed A & B parts, once you have the supply of A & B (Iso & Poly- think Bondo and MKP) and just experiment.

    It is quite expensive in Oz to buy this stuff but for $180 I have duplicated a lot of different components and the Pu volume has depleted less than the silicon which is needed for casting the mold, so the economies of scale kick in as you get the mold right and duplicate from there. Utube has plenty of info on this and utilize the availability of application specific materials on the market in the US for casting the copies.

    I worked with Pu in an R&D company and it is an amazing material in its polymer structure, and the applications in cold casting an RIM(Reactive Injection Molding)are still being developed.

    Just my 02 worth
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  7. wintech

    wintech Karting

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    +1 LIKE
     
  8. Finitele

    Finitele Formula 3

    Sep 26, 2007
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    Right Brian,
    He does not seem very serious

    And the most honest solution presented ... with no response
     
  9. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
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    Not going to read through all the suggestions, but maybe it's been said before, but how about creating a 2 piece mold from the plastic one and then casting them in aluminum or whatever alloy you decide on
     
  10. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    :rolleyes:

    Looks like neither of you have read the posts all that carefully so before anyone else goes off half cocked here's the Reader's Digest version of what I've already said.

    You really DO have to read through the posts if your intent is to help.

    Meister, I can appreciate that there are more than a couple of posts here but as for a mold, it's already been done. That part is readily available. This project is about the feasibility to come up with something simpler and far less expensive which is much more likely to be purchased.

    Finitele, chill out and read my summary.
    I have responded multiple times in the thread.

    Repeating ...

    I'm going to make a prototype which I have out of an inexpensive washer as a proof of concept before I actually proceed with anything. I thought that was prudent. It's currently installed but the car is also in storage for the winter now so it won't get tested properly until next year. Once I have a prototype that can work I'm going to poll the potential buyers to see if there's interest. Capice?

    What I got out of this thread were several ideas about how, some bona fide offers for production and now we'll have to see how it pans out. Thanks once again to those who contributed.
     
  11. 121Designer

    121Designer Formula Junior

    Aug 15, 2013
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    Joshua Lange
    What a thread. The details are what make it special. Sounds like you want to retain plastic qualities and the fiber reinforcement would surely help. Make it milled carbon mixed into in high temp, low viscosity epoxy resin or epoxy mold resin cast in a simple silcone one-piece pour mold. Get low shrinkage and low viscosity Platinum silcone that degases without vacuuming necessary. Be aware of any shrinkage in the process. Always a composite option to throw out there.
     
  12. 121Designer

    121Designer Formula Junior

    Aug 15, 2013
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    Joshua Lange
    The other suggestions were quite impressive, fun to read, and sound way more technical than mine, but I thought it would be fun to throw a silicone mold out there for thought. Great for casting quick urethane parts needed to keep up our Ferrari's.
     
  13. Sigmacars

    Sigmacars Formula 3
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    Jul 19, 2006
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    #38 Sigmacars, Dec 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2014
    This is a very simple part to make i have a injection molding comp.and made the folding keys for this site,if you can sell hundreds i am in but with the keys it was hundreds and in the end it was 13 keys,if i make them the estimated cost would be $20.00-$30..each,
    What is this part for i have to use the right Resin.
     
  14. ISBC90T

    ISBC90T Rookie

    May 16, 2007
    30
    Smalltown USA.
    Please don't feel sorry for me...

    Thank you Brian. The parts you have made for me are perfect.
     

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