Ferrari V12 sounds - older vs. newer

Looking at videos from older Ferrari V12 from the 50/60/70, I can't understand how they sound so much more "deeper" and throatier than our newer V12s.

What is particularly confusing, is that the displacement has almost doubled, yet the sounds our cars produce are that of a much smaller car.

250TR

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZCrgfUYOsQ]'57 Ferrari Testa Rossa 250 pontoon start-up - ITALIAN MOTOR magazine - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xJ6cVO_g9E]ferrari 250 TR V12 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og_IKVNK_6M]Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa DRIVING & overview - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltn1wvU-ELM]Ferrari 250 Testarossa Recreation - YouTube[/ame]

and 250GTO

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmAus9MVzSo]Ferrari 250 GTO v12 sound - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_f-kvxv0pw]Ferrari 250 GTO - Startup and Overview on street! Nick Mason from Pink Floyd - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdw05aegMoI]LETS GO FOR A RIDE IN A FERRARI 330 GTO - YouTube[/ame]

BORING

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvBXr_MbGE]FERRARI 550 Maranello start up and exhaust sounds for video game sampling - YouTube[/ame]





By carefully observing the exhaust pipes, it would seem the walls of the pipes are much thinner and slightly tapered, perhaps this can be the contributing factor to the sound?

Of course, some extra "sounds" are produced by the carburetors, timing chain, etc. - but I believe we can get much better sounds out of our significantly "bigger" engines.

I am sure a sound engineer or a musician could add some valuable information - if you look at trumpets or other wind pipe musical instruments, one can notice how very small differences in the piping can make a huge difference in the sound produced.

 

Get ready for really bad time when 458 replacement with turbo will arrive.

Here is my favourite:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMNc7LBlWyw]Ferrari 275 V12 - PURE Sound - YouTube[/ame]

 

With these examples you're comparing Ferrari special/race cars with a standard road car.

This would be a fair comparison:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ld_K-7-4Y]Ferrari 599 GTO Sound - YouTube[/ame]

Or why not this one:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sraMId1-U2w]2012 Ferrari 599XX Evoluzione PURE SOUND & Glowing Brakes - YouTube[/ame]

Or this one:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98h1N1VnScY]The Ultimate LaFerrari Sounds! - YouTube[/ame]

Really so boring?

 

@redcaruser
you don't need 599GTO , 599GTB with good exhaust sounds great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGo64pBGTXU

 

cool, sounds good!

Regarding your first post qwertstnbir, till today you never heard the sound of the 458 successor with turbo engine. Why your negative polemic?

 

Still much more "high pitched" than the older, and much smaller V12.

 

I'm sound lover, for me sound is more important than how car looks, I'm sad that nowadays cars like Zonda are replaced with much less excited sounding Huayra.
you can compare:
Carrera GT > 918
M3 > M4
California 30 > California T

 

I once read an article in a magazine (Road and Track I think) that analyzed car sounds by computer. Lots of little graphs. It may have even compared them to the sound of instruments.

The Daytona had the purest graph of all.

Anyone remember the article?

Sixcarbs

 

I would think emissions play a big part. Also remember, you can smell those cars as far as you can hear them.

 

Yes, I agree - emissions, etc. - but what I am trying to get at, is to understand the physics involved behind the sounds.

 

Don't forget the noise police have laws as to sound output. When you take away the smog tubes and the mufflers and even the pipes the modern car sounds very different than from the showroom floor. Smell emissions did not come around until the dark days of the 70's.

 

The physics are very complex, there are so many parameters with an impact to the sound, about this topic you can write a doctoral dissertation! The "sound" begins in the engine (or in front of it, because you can hear already the intake noise mixed with the exhaust sound during acceleration), crankshafts design, compression pressure, camshaft design, speed range, firing order, exhaust pressure, exhaust temperature - at the end all these parameters do have an impact to the sound. Conclusion: a V6 will sound different to a R6, a highly compressed V8 will sound different to a displacement monster V8, a V8 will sound always different to a V12, an older V12 will sound different to a modern high tech high compressed high rev. V12 and so on.

The next question is: which sound profile would you like to produce and what is possible to produce (noise policies and emission regulations)?

As an example take the Maserati Granturismo and the 458 Italia; the same engine block, one times with 4,5 litre and a high rev layout and one times a 4,7 liter with more priority on an adequate torque curve (both with flat crankshaft). The sound is total different! Ferrari designed a sound with an increasing dramatic, a typical race car composition (nice and inconspicuous at low rpm's, extremely loud and screaming at high rpm's) and Maserati designed a typical GT symphony (loud and powerful from the idle).

If you know your profile its just a question of the resonance body layout; which frequencies do you when and where filter and which frequencies do you when and where intensify, all this adapted to the different engine speeds.

At the end its not a question of the used exhaust system material, it is a question of the engine type and the applied care in exhaust layout design.

Why is the sound of the first Maranello's or the 456's so modest? Ask Ferrari's marketing division.

 

Yes, when I play various trumpets, I don't have governments putting in crap to make it more "efficient" and quieter.

And none of the trumpet manufacturers place an increasing importance on isolating me from the horn and the environment I play in.

Athough the neighbors don't like me playing above high C.

 

Interesting thread! I am pretty sure that the thin wall tubing gives a much more musical sound picture. I have done some testing myself on various cars. What works well for one model does not have to work as good on a near identical engine etc. On the Maranello cars, the intake noise is greatly reduced because the air goes irst through the Hood, then through two big intake boxes before it enters two air filters + two intake manifolds. But on the older cars, there were twelve throttle bodies. That makes a big different. Also, the dimention of the exhaust pipes were smaller before, and made a more high pitched sound. I think that is the reason why Ferrari put on 2 1/4 " exhaust...

I still want to learn how the piping and mufflers influence the sound.

 

I would love to have a sound similar to the TR or GTO - deep and throaty.

I am only focusing on the sound at the tailpipe, since I understand that the intake sound is difficult to change.

 

My first Ferrari was a 365 GT4 2+2, its sound was amazing, already in idle, just beautiful!

When I bought the 456M GT the first action was the installation of a tubi style muffler.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSqVvFSGUYY]Ferrari 456M GT - TubiStyle exhaust muffler while driving - YouTube[/ame]

 

nice , how many miles on 456?

 

Not bad, but still very far from the 3 liter V12.

I have an idea that the wall thickness and slight "taper" could be a major contributing factor.

I guess if no one else has tried it, it will mean that I will have to give it a try myself.

 

I think the difference in sound is that the old Ferraris were tuned for racing and just happened to sound glorious whereas the Ferrari of today spends an inordinate amount of time and money trying to make their cars sound just like their formula one cars, with which they share virtually nothing in common. I will take the vintage and authentic sound all day long.

 

Approx. 13'000 miles (21'000km).
You can see qwertstnbir, also for me the sound is important.

 

Agreed - I personally dislike the F1 sounds.

 

Of course, the 3 liter V12 sound is wonderful, I guess this is out of question.

But don't forget, today there is no chance for a homologation for a new car with such a sound. I'm already on the limit with the tubis.

And your thoughts going in the right direction. Each engine produces basically two unique parameters which have an influence to the sound: the explosion noise and the pulsating air column (exhaust gas). Now on one side the exhaust system has to damp the explosion noise and on the other side with the pulsating air column it is possible to generate sound on the same way like with a wind instrument. The art is to create a unique sound with these two parameters (limiting factors: noise regulations and emission standards must be adhered and the exhaust system must support the engine performance as good as possible).

As written by JoeZaff, earlier the main target was to damp a little bit the explosion noise and to produce least possible back pressure. At that time the world was so beautiful simply - and the engine sound was so wonderful "honest". However, this time has passed.

 

Let me see, SOHC engine with 2 valves per cylinder, chain drive cams, Webers and no mufflers. Wonder why it sounds different from an injected DOHC engine with 4 valves per cylinder?

You can find a combination of exhaust parts that will give the sound you like. If you want loud and low pitched on a late V12, a Novitec SuperSport system with straight pipes will wake the dead with OEM cats, producing a very low pitched growl. You can look through the inside tailpipe and see daylight all the way through the muffler cans. Tailpipes are 90 mm vs the OEM ~72 mm. Makes for a much lower pitched sound.

Here is my old system sold to a 550 FChatter. He has an X-pipe. With straight pipes even lower pitched and louder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdLWQ4uVjw

 

Thank you for the comments - yes, obviously the chain and Webers contribute, but as I said before, this has nothing to do with what you hear at the "tail pipe".

Your SuperSport system sounds good - but I believe there may be some "hidden magic" in using a thin walled exhaust pipe.

Would be great to know if anyone has experimented on this before.