Karts to cars

My 14 year old son has been racing karts nationally for 4-5 years with an established team and is doing well-not consistent podiums, but not a backmarker. Other kids at the junior level are starting the move to junior open wheel formula training ( Skippy, private tests, F1600, etc) I know some of this is mostly based on Dads desire to push the kids as early as possible. While not looking to push him unnecessarily fast, it seems as if autosport is placing increasing downward pressure on age to continue to move up the competitive ladder.
My background is not experienced in racing, only as a Ferrari owner and race watching enthusiast, so this is my first time on this ride.
For those of you more experienced at varying levels, what criterion would you use to determine when the boy is ready?
Age/height/weight?
Actual finish results?
Specific skills achieved/not achieved?
Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks,
John

 

There are people on this forum who have more direct experience with this type of decision than me, but I’ll offer my $0.02 as someone who has 2 friends, 15 and 16 years old, who are moving into formula cars.

14-16 years is the right age, IMO.

Height/Weight – I don’t think this is a major concern. As long as he is physically fit enough to not get overly fatigued during a weekend / race, he should be OK. Of the two kids I know transitioning from karts to formula cars, one is smallish frame and one is quite plump, but both are bullet fast (at least compared to me!).

Maturity – I think this a huge factor. Keeping cool after a mistake, not throwing a fit if he gets a black flag during a race, etc.

Finish results – my 15 year old friend raced karts for 4-5 years and was never a star (similar to your son’s situation – not a backmarker but not a front runner). But, when he moved to formula cars he really started to impress. He did the Skip Barber and Bertil Roos formula car schools and was recommended to a couple of F2000/1600 teams, where he did private test days – setting a couple of lap records in the process – and consistently 1-2 seconds faster than the teams’ prior season drivers. Next year, he’ll be doing 1600. So, I think a driver can be average-ish in karting but take it a new level in cars (read that with a grain of salt since this kid still hasn’t done a full season yet).

Have you thought about the end goal? Road to Indy?

 

Good question. When I was racing Karts, I couldn't take a Skip Barber class without a drivers license, so as soon as I turned 16, it took the classes. 2 years down my formula car career, they opened up the school to any age, and there were 13, 14, 15 year olds in the formula car schools and racing series.

In reality, no one cares about Karting. Its great to have on a resume, but were not in europe and no team will pick up a guy because he's fast in Karts. If racing professionally is the end goal, get him in a Skippy school asap, then as much seat time as you can afford and want to invest.

As far as racing. There is/was a skippy Karting Scholarship that offered 1 free and a handful of discounted seasons to race their national series. This was over 10 years ago for me so i dont know what the current situation is, but there was a limited amount of regional races (I think 5) that you could do and still be qualified for the Karting shootout. So find that information out first before entering him in a bunch of skip barber regional races or private tests.

I helped coach a kid who progressed to the IMSA CTSCC and Formula Mazda Pro series within 2 years and winning races in both. Just like I told his parents, the more seat time you can afford and do, the faster the learning curve will be. Same thing for finding a good coach. But be careful because there are many others out there (and teams) who care more about your wallet than improving the kid.

The reality is that Karting gave your kid a great experience with racecraft and seat time. But his career really starts a this point - in cars. It does not matter that he's not a karting champion and he will either do well in cars or wont. But the more seat time, feedback/coaching, and seat time (emphasis on seat time), the more he will grow to move up the ranks in formula or sports cars.

0.02

 

My son raced karts from age 8 to 16 and was top ten nationally ranked much of that time. Segued to cars at 15 then did three years formula Ford concluding w F1600 pro series. Along the way did all the usual skippy schools including the kart scholarship shoot out. (The year Conor de Phillipi won) "Retired" now that he is in college but man it is a joy to co-drive PCA enduros w him! Happy to chat about experience just PM me! IMO
The key question is what are his/your goals. And, it must be said, budget.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Was talking to my coach Pro driver Eric Curran about my son

His answer: you need to figure out what series is your target

You want him to go Road Racing, NASCAR, Indy etc

For road racing I think a Miatas would be good practice as competition is fierce or a 914 cus you can start tame & turn it into a monster later

Re NASCAR Eric suggested going from karts into a Legend cars then later another feeder series

Formula Ford is good for Indy

 

Where is he racing? Woodbridge Kart Club or the SPK group or Allsports?

 

Thanks for all the input so far. Dave-he started out indoors at Allsports, then we went outdoors based at Beaverrun/Pitt. He has been with a national level team-J3Competition- for the last 3 years and is running a full series of Rotax and Rok Cup in Shootout/Nationals,etc. Also 6 weekends of Florida Winter Tour and Rotax Pan-AMs. On track at least 2 weekends a month and all over the country-Florida/Carolinas/ Midwest/Utah/MidAtlantic...
He is definitely interested in open wheel vs oval, but doesnt quite get the whole money/sponsorship/opportunity thing,yet.
Just hitting puberty now and has barely even discovered girls!That could change everything!
Budget has been about 125K/yr for all-races, equipment,repairs,coaching,travel...Can remain same or possibly increase slightly.
I've been around racing now long enough to see that a fool and his money can soon be parted, so I'm looking to maximize support for him intelligently without making some of early mistakes we made getting into karting.
Thanks again for input.
John

 

FerrariLord-
He is smaller stature, but working with trainers daily
Maturity is there, at least from karting experience.
Skippy as first step? How valuable is this? Dont want to diminish the education, but we have connections so that he can directly test with F1600/2000. BUT-here is where the $$ thing starts. What value at his level? A waste or priceless?

stuntman
See above re Skippy: We are familiar with all shootout scholarship details, etc, and other Juniors just participated in most recent shootout-top five were all 18-20yrs old. Too young? Seat time is paramount, but are there important things to still learn in karting at this age ?

ersatzS2
It has been a fantastic journey being with him and doing the Dad/son thing! Wouldnt trade it for the world!

William H
So hard to figure out series/destiny for a 14 yr old. They're just not "done" yet! Formula Ford used to be the traditional stepping stone for formula track, but is changing to F1600/2000. Now throw in FIA F4 in England/France/Germany/ Spain/NEC/Italy/South Amer/AQustralia/China/Japan ... what to do?

 

You're in a tough spot. I grew up around race tracks and started racing open wheel cars at the age of 18. I was sure I had the tallent, but never was able to find the financial backing beyond club racing for anything other then a brief few races in FF2000.

The typical advice is don't jump into something with aero downforce to start. It's expensive, and there is some value in learning how to set up and work with engineers on cars without the aero load. For that reason I would say F1600.

As for what age, it's a tough call. I'm a bit older now, and frankly it scares me to be on a track with 14 year old kids. I just don't trust my life with someone so young. Others may disagree, but for me it's uncomfortable going wheel to wheel with someone barely in high school. I know the decisions I made at that age....

I sure wish I had that kind of budget when I was starting. But with that being said, be prepared to spend a whole lot more to run in a series that will get him any visibility. At some point you'll have to decide if you are going to do this with him because it's fun, or because he wants to make a living doing it. Although I never made it, I had some of the best times of my life at the race track with my dad. When I'm older, the memories of what my dad and I accomplished at the race track will be something I'll be proud of.

 

FerrariLord-
Just noticed you just finished Bertil Roos a few weks ago and commented on some teenage karters. Despite their young age, did you find they were capable with the cars? Were they able to take instruction and improve? Were you scared they were in over their heads?

 

Karting provides the basic building blocks every driver needs. Learning race craft, strategy, track etiquette, ect. Although it can be an important foundation of experience it’s not an absolute necessity. And being successful (or not) at any level does not guarantee the same result at the next level. But there is no subsitute for experience and starting at a young age in karting is a huge leg up for a young driver.

As previously pointed out, maturity is key. A successful driver is a complete package. At the core of this is the individual themselves. How they handle pressure, process information and instinctively react to situations in fractions of a second as they happen, or even in anticipation of events they perceive are developing in front of or behind them. These are attributes that come from both within and are learned thru experience rather than taught. As a driver matures they develop these skills more and more from seat time and life experience. Don’t forget to add in desire and inner drive. Again, this comes from the voices within and not much you can do to either put it there or take it away. Bottom line is, it takes an intelligent and mature driver to fully apply these strengths. Combine all this with ability, either natural or taught and you have a very solid foundation upon which to build and add other things in pursuit of a complete driver package.

At 14, your son has still only competed as a junior then? I don't think it's too early to think about a junior formula car series but at the same time, don't underestimate what he might learn from the fast, experienced senior karters. Even Aryton Senna said he considered Terry Fullerton the toughest competior he ever faced. Maybe do a transition year where you dip you toe in cars but still race in the senior kart ranks. I went through this about 15 years ago with my son. There is a transition involving cars, more HP, added weight, real suspensions and aero influences. And the further up the ladder you progress, the more complications you have to adapt to. All a part of going faster in more sophisticated machinery.

Sounds like you think he's ready for a next step, just not sure which one? We did a year of Skip Barber and it wasn’t bad, but it is like an basic introduction to car racing, very structured on learning in a somewhat controlled environment. They have lots of driver coaches who provide a wide opinion of feedback and suggestions. But almost every junior category has some form of driver coaching going on as a part of the program. We had a young Dan Wheldon as a series driver coach in our season of FF2000.

I think it’s best to take your first year in cars and treat it like their first year in Karts. No pressure, just seat time, experience and have fun with it. Programs like Skippy try and make the cars all even but differences in performance do exist and make differences in results. You just need to take things in stride and remember your just gaining experience. Other junior categories are more like real racing, in that you sign with a team who field a car and its all out combat on the track. You may want to jump in one of these and forgo the Barber racing 101 school. In this kind of series, it pays to be in a top team, but that will in turn cost more. Sorry, no free lunches. It’s no different really than entering F1 with Mercedes or Red Bull vs. Caterham or Marussia.

A lot depends on your budget which brings me to another major point. 125K is a major budget for karts but not so much in the real world of car racing. Race teams run on cashflow. Make no mistake, it will require a serious and substantial investment (personal or corporate) to climb the car ladder. Your either prepared and willing to make it happen or you’re not. It’s pretty common knowledge within the professional community that most of the best drivers never make it. Having the financial means will not guarantee success, but not having the financial means will insure a short career. It’s just not the same as most stick and ball sports where ability can more easily overcome financial means. A select few at the top levels make a good living off the business side of professional racing. The majority of drivers are just paying their way, chasing a dream and hoping to get there someday. Still, I wouldn’t trade all the time spent with my son or weekends at the track for anything. In the end, its a worthwhile investment no matter the outcome.

 

Your budget is quite a bit more than what my parents were able to afford. So it is possible through hard work, networking, talent, drive, and luck to have him 'make it'. Having said that, SB has produced more professional racing drivers than any other group in the country and possibly the world. I wouldn't hesitate doing a 3-day racing school, then 2-day advanced, a car control clinic (for cross training), and a few regional races in the Formula Cars. Sure they're not as advanced as a 1600 and dont drive like anything else, but they are great training tools.

I think the karting shootout is a good experience either way, so be sure to not do anything that would disqualify him from being able to do the SB shootout. I think thats' a good start. I'm not too familiar about 1600 rates, but I believe you can get far more seat time, training, and experience out of this SB route for the same money spent on (probably significantly) less private testing days in 1600s.

After the SB schooling, Look into some 1600 racing series and the prices. Seat time is key and I still feel that 2 days in a skippy formula car outweigh 1 day in a 1600. From there you can look into doing a 1600 series for a year but in reality, it might be easier to make a career in sports cars than going down the indycar route, especially without a half-million dollar budget or more in a Mazda Pro Car. The more types of cars you can get him in and the more days he drives in a year, the better he will get. So use the first year in cars as a training year to get seat time and try various cars/series and then decide where to go from there.

I won a scholarship to race Formula BMW in 04 and after that couldn't afford a season in FBMW or Star Mazda Pro Series. So I went to sports cars in IMSA's CTSCC and slowly worked my way up the ranks in that series. So it is possible...

 

John,
Recieved your PM. I tried to reply but was unable for some reason. Maybe you need to be a paying subscriber, which I am not. Anyways you can PM me with alternalte contact info if you want or, your welcome and good luck.

 

Hi John

Hope to still see you guys at PIR this coming karting season.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!

John

 

Was watching GoPro video of my 6 yr old son driving his kart

He drives better than most people on the highway

His lines were so good it made me tears eyed

So proud of my little Champion

 

More than one NASCAR pro driver has learned *everything* on the kart circuit, first.

Have you put soapy water on the kart track yet so that he can drift laps?!

Hellafun!

 

Hey John-
Yes!, Im sure we'll be at Pittsburgh sometime. Looking forward to seeing that fancy new track finished, and want to make sure you are getting the 328 and the new vette a little dirty!

 

No, Santa is bringing 2 Crazy Larts for Christmas so he can learn car control

 

They're black, so they're never clean!

Speaking of black: Jim told me yesterday that their Comp Karts are now available in black. Definitely will be my next chassis. Looks like they were competitive in Vegas.

 

Hello John, small world as I know your son Theo because my son like yours is racing in the same series (Michael McCarthy for Andersen Racing) and I struggle with the same thoughts as you. I can tell you that making the move to F1600 is aprox $150k per year and F2000 is another $100k on top of that. We are trying to determine our direction as well and I am starting to think that open wheel may not be the best route and sportscars might be our next step. For now we are going to try one last time at a ticket for worlds in 2015 and take it from there.

I will say the best money we spent was running the past two years in a few of the Rotax Euro Challenge events. You will quickly find out how much talent he has, in the last round in France the top 50 kids were covered by less than .5 of a second.

 

A lot more opportunities in Sports Car racing...