930 Turbo Carrera

Interesting to see debate on the value of these cars. If I may, I would like to ask Joe what he would value a restored car at? Every car I see has differing levels of originality and condition, but one price that we could all try to agree on is a price point for a well restored bare metal, retrimmed, 'good as new' car. What would you suggest to a client a car like this would be worth in todays market Joe? Just to be clear, I am not talking about the Canepa car as I feel that although it has a great history and originality, I am guessing that this car would not stand up to a concourse judge?

 

Cal,

I understand your viewpoint on all.

Interestingly, we have something in common. Before the cars, I was involved in the Financial Planning Industry for 22 years. In fact, that's what afforded me my foray into the Supercars. Lets just say, I understand markets, intimately.

Markets - I share a slightly different viewpoint than yours. Here's mine: ALL markets (stocks, equities, art, cars, real estate) go up, and they go down. This is as sure as night follows day and as constant as the Northern Star. Its like the law of gravity. The only thing guaranteed is change. And yes, that includes those Blue Chip stocks of which you speak. Wait long enough and they'll com down for one reason or another. In fact, I dare-say that the classics cars of which we speak are even more volatile, because they are not a necessity and are not tied to producing assets like many stocks are.

That the current market for the cars is increasing dramatically, there is no doubt. But it does not mean this is a stable, rational, or sensible market. Anything is worth what someone will pay in that moment. But that doesn't mean that value point makes any sense. Human behavior is what governs markets, and lets just say that as illustrated by the Tulip market of lore, human behavior and judgement is not always on-point! Markets can be undervalued, realistic, over-valued or just plain crazy. There is nothing to stop anyone paying $1m for one of these cars, but that person should not expect their peers to think they have any common-sense! Let me illustrate it this way: there is nothing to stop a guy emptying his hard-earned cash out of a briefcase over the edge of the Golden Gate Bridge. But he should not expect anyone to call that behavior anything but nuts. It is what it is, and we all know that human beings have a spotty record when to comes to astute or prudent financial decisions!! The ability to be objective, dispassionate, rational and realistic makes the difference between success and complete failure, and lets face it, not many possess the aforementioned qualities.

Back to the cars. I see 2 types of buyers:
Those that do it for Love. And those that do it for Money. Of course there are those that do it for both to one extent or another. My job and this industry depends on those that do it for Love. Without them, one day these cars will actually be worthless. Food for thought.

Regarding 930s, these are basically old cars that all require lots of maintenance, engine rebuilds, restorations etc. In my opinion therefore, they are not investments at all (compared to income-producing assets), and certainly not at today's prices!

Thinking about this, if the market comes to its senses and values correct, everybody should be happy. Those that were priced out can get in. And those that already have the cars, well, they can buy even more cars!! Also, I can recommend my clients buy them again. A market correction is a win-win-win.

Best,

 

The Canepa car is not a restored car.

Here is a restored car: Cars - In Progress - 1975 Porsche 930 Turbo - Grand Prix White - CPR Classic

I was offered this restored car at $250k, and I passed. Today I'd make a case for paying that number, but bear in mind that here are probably only 3 or 4 930s restored to that standard.

Most 3.0 930s I encounter are $100k cars, and that still way up from a year or two ago.

 

Thanks Joe for your fast response, I agree with your valuations, and with what you say in the post above.by the way, do you know of many occasions when someone empties a case of cash over the side of the golden gate bridge? And if so what time of day do they tend to do it? Just in case I'm passing!

 

In fact, we have seen MANY people figuratively emptying the proverbial briefcase full of cash, just go to any public auction and at least you'll be able to witness it for yourself! So far as they understand when you tell them they overpaid, all is good.

 

Thr CPR car no doubt has many hours invested. I'm not sure they are aiming at a "as it left the factory look"?

 

The car had a post-restoration fettling where a number of very minor details that were not strictly correct as a result of the restoration were corrected.

By virtue of today's modern restoration standards, any thoroughly restored car will be better than it ever was when it left he factory, and this is important if they are to be enjoyed properly. Even today's Porsche Ag restorations result in cars that are better than they ever were, and that's a good thing IMO.

 

Did they have body colour under the wheel arches and floor pan from factory?

 

Yes, by 1975 all had body color under the wheel arches. The floor pan also had body color, but more light a light overspray than thick body paint. Same with the paint in the front trunk area: light overspray of body color that usually was thin but sometimes appears thicker depending on the body color. Also, the engine compartment was painted body color and not black like earlier 911s.

 

Hello Joe, I like your passion for the cars...

I personally never liked the restoration way that targets to make the car becoming a new one.
I love to "feel", smell, taste and see my cars gone through 40 years, but being technically in perfect shape )

It is like with people: someone in his forties with all the wrinkles, character etc is far more attractive than.... ;-)

Recently, in Europe those cars showing their age (patina) are way higher priced than the full restored ones. That does not mean having torn seat covers etc....I think you know what I mean.

This might also be differently evaluated from culture to culture. Most probably every type of car will have its lovers.

I will observe how this develops in the future....

 

Hi, back to the cars itself.
I my 1977 930 I have a little problem with the carpets in the rear (behind the rear seats). Regular color was brown (like maroon) but the sun turned it into a greenish color. I would like to try to recoiler or replace these parts, but I failed to identify the type of carpet so far.
The carpet is like a fur - that means really long "hair" (about 2cm long)

Anybody knows that type of carpet?

Thanks for your hints..

 

You could dye the carpet if it is in good shape.

 

Cal - I agree with you although the shift to preservation vs. restoration is still undecided for the 930 Turbos. Although some in the U.S. consider the 930 Turbo an overproduced, “heavier boulevardier” cruiser, the international perception (and those on this thread) would consider it a historically important car. If you are in this camp, I recommend the book, “The Stewardship of Historically Important Automobiles” to those considering preservation vs. restoration for their 930 Turbo. Porsches are not my only collecting passion and I like how the book compares other antiques and the effect of restoration on value. No affiliation – avaliable on Amazon (their photo below).
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White RHD 1975 Turbo “151 FLY” posted on PistonHeads a few years ago – note the Durant driver’s mirror.
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With regard to some of the previous post (s) analysis. So now if you want to sell for top dollar or restore it to keep, for some USA clients you want it to be in Pebble beach lawn condition ?. However if in good to excellent complete original but unrestored survivor condition then Europe will be the best destination?
That has been my experience also when I have sold in the past. So for a US client you find a nice complete but restore able 930 for $50-100K then spend between $100-200K at a quality shop. Well then the value of a perfect restored car should be much higher than that in most price guides for it to make sense at this time. Your not there yet unless some are speculating. A alternative is if a person has the skill to DIY to keep or for profit . Lots of money to be made/saved for those with top restoration skills. Now if its pretty nice to begin with Europe is your market to sell into now. Restorations usually take a lot of time and that could be a good thing if the market continues to rise whereas selling a nice unrestored 930 into Europe will generate a immediate sale at today's price without worrying about the market reversing.

 

Cal007,

Perhaps inadvertently, you make a wonderfully astute observation that the ultimate condition of a car "might also be differently evaluated from culture to culture"

This is so true!

I have clients in the USA, South America, Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and Australia/NZ, and I can tell you there is without a doubt a difference in what is preferred from one culture to another.

In most places, cars correctly restored to absolute original condition by renowned marque-specialists or the factory itself, are absolute top-of-the-tree. But, in Europe, you correctly observe that there is an emerging market that rewards original cars.

Having said that, I think there is some short-sightedness in this notion, as practiced by the people that have 'created' this market, because a car by nature, especially an old car, is a machine that deteriorates with use and by nature REQUIRES refurbishment & restoration. It is completely different than say a piece of Louis XIV furniture which is prized in original condition as it can function perfectly in a static setting with little more than cleaning. Although a car can be seen as automotive art, it is not art, because art is something which serves no other purpose than the aesthetic one. Thus I think the rewarding of top dollar for normal road-going series cars in unrestored condition (such as the 930) is misplaced. Of course, a different perspective can be taken with vastly important very rare car, say a famed Le Mans winner, or a one-of-two factory Prototype etc. But not a production car. All IMVHO, of course.

As if to underscore the point, on the funny side, I recently offered a world-renowned collector an original car. He returned the communication with: "Joe, you've seen my collection, and, as you should know by now, I am just not a caretaker of Patina and Cracked Leather". He went on to elaborate that he started out collecting original cars, but after much road-side repairs and an increasingly frustrated wife, he decided to devote himself to old cars that were actually reliable and worked well. This lead him to the world of fully-restored cars by marque-specialists or by their respective factories. Whilst there is a preservation class at Pebble Beach and those cars are no doubt quite valuable, I can tell you the the best restored cars are very valuable to many collectors also. They look at them as cars that have now been properly preserved for future generations using methods & materials that were just not available 40 years ago. That to them is important in an automobile designed for road use.

Porsche Ag itself seems to have taken the same point-of-view as the one I describe above, because, as you can see, they believe in a full restoration to return the car to its former glory and more. Their POV clearly adheres to the basic premise of restoration which is: "a return of something to a former, original, normal, or unimpaired condition."

Assembly and Finish - Revive the Passion - Porsche 911 Factory Restoration - References - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Delivery to the winner - Revive the Passion - Porsche 911 Factory Restoration - References - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

At the end of the day, for the people who buy these cars for love, it is a hobby, therefore they have only themselves to make happy. When it comes to the marketplace and the thoughts specialists like myself, there is more of a responsibility to take a viewpoint that is rational and based on economic reality. Ergo my recent stance (which in fact has been developing for a while) that the cars are currently vastly overpriced, and this includes both original & restored cars.

Best,

 

I assume everyone has seen this article from a magazine in the UK a few years ago? It made good reading.
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That slate grey is gorgeous, and the fact that the King of Cool drove a car similar to mine is no bad thing.

One reason that I hope prices drop is so that the value of the cars doesn't come to dominate conversations about them (no offence to the very knowledgeable commentators here, whose opinions I find very informative, but whenever conversation turns to my 930 amongst my car loving buddies, it's always the recent sales prices that they talk about.).

I've decided to hold on to my classic cars indefinitely, so the value question is largely irrelevant. When values headed North, I said to my very car-passionate wife that perhaps we should be more careful about parking the 930 on the street when out to dinner or heading to track days, but she wisely pointed out that there's no point keeping a great machine like that as garage art.

Besides, if prices drop, then I can buy more of them!

 

Great post(s) Joe but reminds me of what happened on the Vintage forum where pricing debates hijacked so many threads that moderators quarantined the discussions in their own sub forum. Maybe a good idea here. Personally I'd love to see the discreet separate thread you proposed. It would be a shame to clutter this extremely factual and data-rich thread with market distractions!


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1977 Turbo Carrera for sale in Germany.

Porsche 911 TURBO 3L II.Hd 1-Lack Klima Sperre Ufallfrei als Sportwagen/Coupé in München
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Having no plans to "cash in" on my 76 ROW, all the market increase means for me is constantly having to educate my insurer and pay more for the cover.

The knowledge base here is a constant reference for me. The sales speculations is just stuff I have to sift through.

 

1976 Turbo in the Raid Suisse-Paris 2014. This '76 Turbo appears to have a bright green interior.

Posted on flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35169193@N04/15175150719/in/photolist-p7YBBD-ndYePT-mRVfEX-mRVcDg-mRVf1F-oxpM74-oEQMwf
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Great perspective!

 

Fair comments noted, and I agree.

However, as steveintoronto pointed out, the 930 has (unfortunately) become all about sales numbers because of the crazed market, so perhaps one can be forgiven for discussing that subject! When prices are more sane, the focus is on the history, design, maintenance etc of these cool cars. In crazed markets, discussions on the market tend to dominate or at least become more prominent. So far as its civil & objective, I think its okay. I'm still formulating a seperate market commentary idea, and will likely do this for my clients.

 

Drove my 996tt and 930 back to back today. It is the first time my 930 has been out in 5 months or so and WOW! The 996tt may have more power, but the 930 really is something special. The driving sensation from my 930 is incredible! It just feels more alive.