Mondial purchase input needed

I am a believer that Mondials will certainly see the day when their values will rise. I am considering buying one as a long-term investment. However, unlike many F-car owners, I do not have a great deal of expendable income.

Before I jump, I'd like to get your input on the true cost of ownership. I have considered the initial purchase: approximately $33,000, major service: about $5,000 every 5 years (too low?), New tires: $1500 every six years, insurance: $800/year, misc repairs: $2000/year.

I would candidly classify myself as one of those guys who can afford the car but can't stroke a check anytime for the maintenance. If I do this, I will be carefully saving each month for the longer term costs. But my thought process is, when will I have the chance to buy a ferrari at this price and be able to enjoy the appreciation over the next few decades??

Anyone feel the need to talk me off of this cliff?
Any other Mondial owners out there that jumped in "before they made their first million?"

I appreciate all input...

John


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I agree that the Mondial is undervalued. You can get them in the low 20's all day long right now. Everything is going up lately BUT the Mondials. Weird to me. Porsches are going up and all old school Ferraris except the Mondial. Doesn't make much sense considering they were popular when new and sold well. They are "real" Ferraris vs say a Dino which despite a similar low value for years then skyrocketed. 308's have spiked too and they were low 20's forever. I had a tuff choice between 308, 328, 456 and decided the Mondial checked every box. Gated shifter, v8, Pinafrina body, drop top, mid engine, simple maintenance and bonus back seats fot my sons! It's an ideal choice for the majority of us Dad's who want an Italian exotic. Hell, Beck replicas and Delorian's are more money! Mondial's are screaming deals IMHO. Go for it. Just get one that has been loved AND used regularly.

 

Hi John

I can't comment on the true cost of ownership of a Mondial as I don't own one yet - I do own a few other classic cars - but don't buy a Mondial as an investment!

I, too, believe that they are undervalued and that good examples will appreciate in the future, but the appreciation will hardly outperform maintenance.

If you buy a Mondial, buy it because you'd like to drive it, and drive it as often as you can. If you're looking for an investment, buy stocks.

Cheers,
Chris

 

I remember a principal in a major auction house one said something to the effect of:

"You can never pay too much, you can only buy too soon".

There will aways be the bottom rungs of the ladder in the Ferrari appreciation market. Mondials are down there, but I would caution that if Mondials prices start going thru the roof, the bubble is about to burst (again).

I have owned 4 Mondials (3.0 Coupe, 3.0, 3.2 and t Cabriolets) over the years and basically didn't lose money as I bought them properly. If I'd taken that money and put it in the stock market I would be further ahead financially but that's not the point. Buy the best car you can afford and enjoy it for what it is.

While I've moved on to a 360 Spider, the Mondial is still an enjoyable car.

 

If it helps, I think your tire budget and insurance estimates are far higher than the reality. A set of tires for my 308 from Tire Rack is @ $600 and my agreed value insurance ($53k) is < $300 per year.

Spend your $ up front, buy the best one you can afford. You will be able to sort through minor repairs win help from this board.

 

Your assumptions could not be further from the truth!

Yes, they're cheap to buy... But, these cars are 20+ years old, they can cost big money to fix. However, you may save a few coins on the labor if you're familiar with tools and such. So expect the unexpected (they're old cars!).

Never gonna happen. The appreciation for 98% of all Mondials will parallel cost of living increases.

You must be joking, otherwise you're talking about the 500 instead.
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You're wise to be considering the true cost of ownership. My costs have been much lower than your estimates -- this on a car that would be classified as a good "driver" with a lot of continual upgrades/repairs/cosmetic improvements. But I'm doing my own work, so I have no labor costs.

IMO, In the current market you should be able to get really nice example without big issues for $33k. Other folks will have much more informed opinions about specific models.

For $1500 you will get the very best street tires. I'm very happy with $800 worth of tires. Really, $400-500 will get you excellent tires for cars-n-coffee and the occasional spirited drives in the country.

I know nothing about the labor rates for major service. Some parts are silly expensive.

For insurance, I pay $400 a year with Hagerty, and that price includes their 100 mile flatbed tow service. (I think it would be about $300 without that.)

Over all, I'm probably spending about $2000-3000 a year on maintenance, repairs, restoration and upgrades. But again, this is 99% DIY and my labor is free.

I can't talk you out of it... these things are way too much fun. I'm certainly not made of money, but affording the car is no hardship. Don't concern yourself with owning the car as an investment, I would just drive it and enjoy it.

EDIT: What Alpintourer said -- "buy the best car you can afford." Just like art and antiques, I might add.

 

First of all, thank you for all of your input thus far. I have much to learn from this crowd and I appreciate that.

Secondly, allow me to clarify my initial post. I do not expect the car's future value to play a significant role in my retirement plans. That said, it'd be nice if it was worth $100k in 20 years. (Not a whole lot in today's dollars I would guess.)

I would be buying it to enjoy it, attend a C&C or two and drive my family around in the summertime. But if I do it, the car will be "slightly" obsessed over. I take exceptional care of my treasures and this would top that list overnight.

I do love the DIY role and am therefore considering a 3.2 based on my reading. However, I'm not afraid to let the experts handle the jobs that are beyond my abilities. I never want to be the guy that ruined his own engine.



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+1!

The Mondial is possibly the most enjoyable Ferrari to own in this highly pragmatic world. I truly enjoy mine immensely. And while I am clearly upside down on my Mondial, it makes me happy, it helps me relax, and it makes me smile mainly because my whole family can enjoy it with me. It's a great date night car. It's a great drive to work on a beautiful day car. It's a great weekend car. It's even a fun track car in the appropriate environment. Every old car has issues, and the Mondi is no exception. I bought the car as a treat to myself. Little did I know what an underestimation I made of the pleasure my Mondial has brought to me and my family.

Buy the best you can afford. And buy before this opportunity is gone.

 

I bought mine as a 50th birthday present to myself. I made one major mistake: I should have bought one as a 30th birthday present to myself.

 

Great deals are out there, and while I do agree heavily with the "buy the best you can afford" route, I did not go that route, but time will tell

I didn't buy a 3.2 though, so I cannot speak to those levels, but in October, I treated myself to a nice 2 valve Mondial 8. It has 23,xxx original miles, I did NOT have a PPI performed, instead an API, by my mechanic back in CT. I got lucky and it does not need much, and I am extremely happy driving the car. It shifts right. Sounds fantastic, corners great, the steering is fun at speed, and it doesn't feel too heavy. Just a really fun car to drive, and I set aside $3-4,000 in "anticipation" costs in regards to maintenance. I paid less than a third of the car you're looking at, so yes, in the long run, if she was worth a large X, I would be happy. But for now, I'm just happy to own her and enjoy. Pull the trigger

 

100k? Uncracked B-pillars will be worth that in 20 years; as will rear window motors. And how much to permanently fix the AC fan rheostat that's either on full or off ?

The budget posted sounds good for a car where nothing goes wrong. It's just so easy to have a $2k problem crop up. If you don't address that then you won't be selling the car for big $.

And if you use the car, then perhaps a door ding or other accident. Oh the horror.

I've already driven my initial price money's worth over the past few years. Anything else is gravy. If she were worth 100k tomorrow I don't know if I'd have as much fun.

I wouldn't go into this thinking about what she'll sell for in twenty years; I'd go into it thinking about what amazing driving adventures I can have over the next 20 years and can I maintain her during that time to a level that works for me.

Good luck. We've been having a blast.

 

Welcome John!!

Thanks for your questions

Your estimates are pretty reasonable, but you should ask yourself if you should get a 3.2 or t - that will adjust your maintenance cost - the 8, qv, 3.2 are less expensive to be maintained. They are all great models, each with their respective pros/cons.

The key to this journey is the initial purchase of the car. Try and find a person that LOVED their Mondial and kept it up to date. This is the #1 thing you can do to ensure you have a great experience. If you are buying a car that has a questionable history - make sure to get a good PPI - they will find issues and quote you the $$$ to fix it - I would let the original seller know the cost.

Negotiate the final selling price with that in mind.

Whatever the cost to fix the issues - expect double that - because invariably - there will be things missed.

 

I don't expect the Mondial to appreciate until about 15 years from now. By then, I hope my car has been thoroughly driven and ready for a complete restoration/engine rebuild etc...

As far as being a DIY - I would say the 3.2, qv, 8 are all much better since as you know you don't have to yank the engine out to do major work. (but you know this)

The key to your journey John is find the right "person" not the right "car."

Let me expound - it's been my experience that finding the owner that loved the car as much as you will - goes way..way..further then that pretty red car on the consignment's lot you've been eyeing since last year...

One car was lovingly taken cared off, the other has already been relegated to the orphanages (car lot) which means a lot of problems (seen and unseen) -

A car that's been regularly driven will have it's issues known (hopefully resolved), versus a car that's been collecting dust in a lot somewhere.

 

I currently own two Mondial 3.2 coupes and have low $30's in both of them.

That cost includes the purchase price as well as MAJOR+ service performed by a well respected mechanic on this site. The major service was normal belts, tensioners, valve adjustment, etc. as well as all fluid leaks plus the individual needs of each car (one needed injector work, another needed new CV boots, and so on). Both got new tires.

While that may not be the end of their needs, I truly don't expect to put much more into them over the next few years other than fuel, oil changes, etc. It's true that anything can happen; however, if properly maintained these engines are renowned for their reliability. If you can do the maintenance yourself then you can save a lot of money. If not, make sure you hire a mechanic with a good reputation.

One of my cars had a bunch of half-assed work done to it in the past that was not immediately obvious. I know the work was done correctly this time and I would literally drive either one of my cars cross country today if required. Many owners can't say that with any confidence. I can and, in my opinion, that should be the standard every owner should strive for. Having a show queen that you wipe down with a cloth diaper every weekend is nice to look at. However, to really enjoy your car it needs to run and drive as intended and you have to have faith that it will not leave you stranded.

Will these cars increase in value? Who knows? I fully agree with Alpintourer...if Mondials start skyrocketing in price you better sell because the crash is coming. Then you can buy it back at a steep discount! If you are buying as an investment you are probably making a mistake.

So, as usual, the old advice holds true. Buy the best car you can afford. Buy the car that you enjoy driving...you may own it a long time. And lastly, don't let the maintenance scare you off. Even though I pay someone to maintain mine I absolutely feel like I could do it on my own if I wish. These cars are still very simple compared to the cars that came later. The electrical systems are fairly simple and the mechanical systems are straight forward.

I bought mine and haven't looked back. As mulo rampante said, he wish he had bought his at 30. I agree. Don't wait another 10 years and look back and think, "I wish I had bought a Ferrari!"

 

This ^^^

And yes, I believe a crash is coming. I'm not "doom & gloom" but the current appreciation in P cars and F cars can not be sustainable.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Joe

 

Speaking of skyrocketing prices, this 87 3.2 Mondial Coupe was a no sale at $39,950, twice!

Then they raised the price to $45,000.00!

By looking at the photos, my 88 Coupe (Rare! Last year made! ) is in similar condition but with less miles (55.3k theirs and 36.3k mine).

To think that I was planning to list it for a realistic $23k.

ZFFXD21AXH0072469

1987 Mondial RARE 2 2 Coupe w Sunroof Option Major Service Exceptional | eBay

1987 Mondial RARE 2 2 Coupe w Sunroof Option Major Service Exceptional | eBay

Ferrari Mondial RARE 3 2L 2 2 CPE w Sunroof Option ABS Brakes | eBay
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At some point the bubble will pop. They always do. Whether it be the tulip market, real estate, or collector cars, markets overheat then correct. The interesting aspect of the car market; however, is the prices never return to their previous level.

 

Wade... With the pricing model that seller is using you should add a 1 in front of your asking price

That being said, you may be a little low if your car has had recent service

 

That would be awesome!

I was planning to sell "as is" for that price and let the new owner define their baseline. However, since I'm not in a rush, I'll most likely do the service and then price accordingly.

 

Interesting questions being addressed here, guys.

I for one don't believe Ferraris rising in price is a bubble. It's simply a question of a finite, luxury item rising in price because God or Enzo isn't making them anymore. A Monet or a Stradivarius will never stop increasing in price. Is anyone concerned that a Monet's value may drop or that the "art bubble" will pop? Not unless Monet ressucitates.

And actually what you call a rise in prices or a bubble over there in the US, I believe it is already the market correcting itself. Prices of Mondials in the US are ridiculously low compared to Europe. Buying one in Europe equals buying two Mondials in the US. Maybe the market is already adjusting to European prices, and that increase in price is a correction, following the trend, not a bubble.

Kindest regards,

Nuno.

 

I paid $32K for my prugna coupe with 44k miles. It had new belts and some ignition stuff and ran ok and still looks great. It now runs excellent and like a scalded dog. The NAPA starter cost $550 installed. I lunch a clutch through my own misconduct but took 'birdmans' DIY photos to my local mechanic and he did the labor for $2,000, though it is something many people do themselves.

Another problem rose a few weeks ago. I was getting quite a lot of oil leaking to such an extent smoke billowed out the engine vents. Scary smoke. So I put in four different kinds of stop leak, including a quart of Lucas and now there is no smoke at all. Don't know how long that will last but so far so good.

The car really likes heavy oil, it turns out. So I plan to use 20W50 in the future. About $10 a quart. And I will use an easy warm up out of excess of caution. But racing oil is often straight 40W and I have even seen 50W.

Then there are tires. I wore the new Pirelli P Zeor Neros out in 6,000 miles and replaced them with Contintintal ExtremeContact Summer DWs which cost about $100 each. Had another run with them today in my mountains and they are a gas. Excellent tracking, easy riding, docile full-throtle drift. Better front behaviour then the Pirellis. And a high longevity rating. I checked my post-run tire pressures and saw 45psi in back and 40psi in front.

I don't know exactly what psi I put in them cold but probably close to 40 psi since they seemed a bit soft at 33psi from dealer installation. Although they they feel about right I might back them off a few psi for comparison. The front/rear ratio seems spot on.

 

Upon delivery of my car and after studying the cooling system I got spooked. The coolant piping look like something out of a nuclear power plant. Something like one or two dozen hoze clamps plus lots of radiators (two heaters and one engine radiator) that might or might not spring a leak under one bar of pressure. Let alone the water pump.

So I increased the anti-freeze/water ratio from 50/50 to 60/40. [70/30 is the max] That gave an ambient boiling temperature of 235, I believe. I live at 2,000ft elevation and so that reduces it somewhat.

Then I totally depresurized the cooling system. Its been that way for 7,000 miles and included much vigorous running at 90F in the dry mountain air. I have never added any coolant since I made the change.

I do not recommend this because results might not be good. For instance, I read of one guy in Atlanta with working A/C that boiled a full gallon out of the system. Did not apparently damage anything. But I was willing to test it out for the purpose of eleviating stress on the coolant components. Of which there are legions. In fact, I believe there is a rubber hose dirctly under the intake manifold. yikes

 

My 26 year old radiator sprung a (pinhole) leak this past weekend. It's just age... you can see how fresh the coolant looks (regular changes).
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I would say you should have at least 40k budgeted before you consider a purchase.