The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think this car has been proven a replica. The article below is what I'm referring to.

Forghieri speaks: Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 is NOT P3/4 0846. - PistonHeads

 

Firstly as ALL debate about 0846 has to be in the dedicated 0846 debate thread where this has been gone over many times and includes very clear additional written testimony by Forghieri.

The person posting in the PH thread is a troll who has been permanently banned from Ferrari Chat for Trolling and Commercial Spamming.

Mauro Forghieri has confirmed in writing after cross examination:
"To be perfectly clear"
that his department sent damaged no longer needed chassis to the scrap yard and did NOT physically destroy them.
After being shown THE entire PDF he also stated in writing that the P 3/4 chassis modifications currently on 0846 today could "Of course" been done by Ferrari.
"According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was destroyed after Le Mans '67." Steve Robertson
Not true as the following written statement by Mauro Forghieri clearly proves:
">Dear Mr Glickenhaus
I will try to clarify my statement regarding the subiect matter.
It appears that the greatest point of misunderstanding lies in the use of the words 'scrapped' and 'destroied'.Because I did not,at the time of my answering Mr Robertson inquiry, have a clear picture of the contention,I failed to differentiate between the two words,and may have used them as synoinoms.
Now let me clearly state that,when pieces (or even a whole chassis)where discarded from our dpt, we did not engage in any activity intended to phisically destroy it:we merely sent it to the scrap yard,and were no longer concerned to what happened to it.
Because we are talking of long time ago,when Ferrari memorabilia trading was not as developed as it is to day,nobody had much interest in the eventual destination of wrecks." Mauro Forghieri
"Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications." Steve Robertson
Once again not true as the following written statement of Mauro Forghieri clearly proves:
"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement. In the hope to have been of some helps Have my best" Mauro Forghieri

This Same Troll's quoted statement on Ferrari Chat Speaks for it's self:

Ferrari clearly stated before publishing the fact in their sole discretion that I have been the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 that they first constructed in 1966, what department at Ferrari would have to investigate my submission before Ferrari would allow that to occur.

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

Months ago Steve clearly stated exactly what he felt that meant.

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

 

Isn't that PistonHeads troll actually the permabanned MuiraSV from here?

His hard on for you is embarrassing as was his promotion of certain dealers.

 

Carl, are you serious??? woww, thats new!! ;-)

Seriously.. please read the entire thread about 0846 on this magnificent forum. It will keep you busy for a few days, and its a good read!

0846 is one of the most interesting cars in Ferrari-history.

 

Yes.

True, True.

 

I would like to start at the beginning of the thread but the pictures no longer link. Can that be restored? Fascinating information here.

 

Are you a massochist?!

 

I did it a few months ago and I'm glad I did. Be prepared though...there is some repetition.

 

Here , let me give you the short version and save you some time.

Yes it's 0846

No it isn't 0846

 

The pictures are gone for good due to a server crash back in the day and will not be returning. But most of what you need to see can be found somewhere in the thread.

 

Perhaps I am stating the obvious buts perhaps we should be celebrating the fact that 0846 wasn't lost forever and the car is driven, people see it, kids admire it, people get to listen to the V12.

That to me is more important than some seemingly very bitter person seemingly carrying out an agenda of some sort.

 

+1.

Yes I did send an email to Forghieri's company and was pleasantly surprised that he answered. I'e also sent an email to the company where I believe the person who race prepared #0003 now works, but unfortunately I've never received an answer.

In the end I do not believe it is possible to prove either way and I'm now happy to accept that. In a way it adds to the drama of a car that has a very exciting history.

You guys over there in NY are lucky to be able to witness her in the flesh.
Pete

 

No old racing car is going to be as pure as Caesar's wife. No matter what other beliefs one holds, it's as original as we have and should be celebrated.

 

I figured I'd read a bit each day and learn something new. Thank you to all who replied. I will keep reading. Very interesting.

 

These two men were Enzo Ferrari and David Piper.Several facts exist about this meeting.Noone else was involved;No notes or records exist of the details of the meeting.Only one of the two is sill with us. Now my file on 0846 is over 200 pages.The number of posts on the F Chat web site will probably exceed 3000 eventually. So what is the BIG missing link in all of this. Who of the two major players has never been directly heard from?? Ok Enzo Ferrari but there isn't a published record that I know of any comments by him of the meeting. So that leaves David Piper very much alive and kicking. The only other person at the meeting.So when have we heard from D.P.??? That's right,never on this subject.Is there some reason for this? If there is I sure would like to hear it. If a jury was assembled to hear this case and the one living person involved, being of sound mind and body, was never called to testify,no judge in his right mind would hear the case.Everyone! Keep this in mind as things proceed.There is no chance in hell of this discussion going anywhere worthwhile without David Piper being involved.tongascrew

 

We have heard from Piper. David says it is a replica and always has been.
Pete

 

Should be 9000 posts not 3000 Sorry;tongascrew

 

That was over 40 years ago. How about something from him in the last shall we say decade??? tongascrew

 

Tonga

Once again you're posting total BS.

We heard very clearly from David several years ago. In a failed effort to prove 0846 was built by him to P4 Blueprints even though it one time had a P3 engine fitted he gave a statement and a Photo to Nathan who published it in this thread.

The Delicious irony is that David's photo proved beyond the shadow of ANY doubt that that 0846's chassis is NOT built to P4 Blueprints but is absolutely a P3 chassis and is today exactly as he sold it to me. His statement proved beyond the shadow of ANY doubt what so ever that David has NO idea about the differences between a P3 chassis and a P4 chassis. His misunderstanding is VERY clear. It's exactly 108 degrees wrong.

David was NOT at the meeting where 0846's original chassis was sold out of the Ferrari scrap yard mentioned by Mauro Forghieri by Enzo. The person who was and what he said about it as he lay dying is also in this thread.

Once again read the thread.

 

Ok let's go back to post 4717 and I quote "Maybe old man Ferrari told Piper to take what he wanted and he extended that to the "scrap" materials too?" and "Maybe Tom Meade discarded it[chassis 0846] and Piper took it without asking?" and "Who knows[apart from Piper".I gather your reference to "he lay dying" refers to Tom Meade. The issue here is not whether Piper referred to the 0846 as a P 3 or a P 4.The issue is what did David Piper sell to you.According to Piper he sold you a reconstructed P series Ferrari with a certain engine and a rolling chassis made up of discarded Ferrari P series parts which he had numbered 0003. As the story goes Enzo Ferrari, in addition to the P4 blueprints and and a supply of discarded P3 and P4 parts, sold you #0003 without any knowledge of its origin. In the process of your rebuilding 0003 you made the discovery that what tuned out to be some 80% of the rolling chassis was made up of parts of 0846 and later convinced management at Ferrari that 0003 should be officially numbered 0846. All I am saying here is that until David Piper is consulted in this discussion and his opinions recorded there remains a large empty space of data that only he can provide. Regardless of the opinions that some have of David Piper without his input the discussion of 0846 cannot be complete. One way or the other he sold 0846 to Jim Glickenhaus and he alone knows what made this possible.The fact that at the time he didn't know what was selling is not a major factor. And in addition to specific P4 blueprints, Ferrari gave him permission to take what whatever he wanted of P series parts from the Maranello scrapyard for??? Only David Piper knows. That meeting between Piper and Ferrari remains a mystery which only one person is still with us who was there. tongascrew

 

As an interested spectator and outsider looking in, it seems at the present time the only concrete, undisputed fact that is common between the 0846 Ferrari built in Italy, and the 0846 Jim renumbered from Piper 003 in the USA is that both cars were modified to accept a p4 engine instead of a P3 spec one.

The man in charge of converting the original Ferrari version in period Mr MF has directly confirmed in writing recently that based on photos provided to him that the way Jims car has been converted to accept a p4 engine is not the way Ferrari would have converted its version.

Everything else appears to be based on theories, second/third hand dialogue and summising. Each camp is miles apart in agreeing anything else at this time.

 

and as Jim is the fully legal owner of his version he can say and do as he chooses. If it was ever to be put up for sale all the information is out there for the next owners to read, digest and decide upon at that time.

My understanding is no other vehicle out there is laying any claims at all to be 0846

 

Not true.

Mauro Forghieri very clearly in writing clarified his previous email and clearly stated:

"To be perfectly clear"
that his department sent damaged no longer needed chassis to the scrap yard and did NOT physically destroy them.
After being shown THE entire PDF he also stated in writing that the P 3/4 chassis modifications currently on 0846 today could "Of course" been done by Ferrari.
"According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was destroyed after Le Mans '67." Steve Robertson
Not true as the following written statement by Mauro Forghieri clearly proves:
">Dear Mr Glickenhaus
I will try to clarify my statement regarding the subiect matter.
It appears that the greatest point of misunderstanding lies in the use of the words 'scrapped' and 'destroied'.Because I did not,at the time of my answering Mr Robertson inquiry, have a clear picture of the contention,I failed to differentiate between the two words,and may have used them as synoinoms.
Now let me clearly state that,when pieces (or even a whole chassis)where discarded from our dpt, we did not engage in any activity intended to phisically destroy it:we merely sent it to the scrap yard,and were no longer concerned to what happened to it.
Because we are talking of long time ago,when Ferrari memorabilia trading was not as developed as it is to day,nobody had much interest in the eventual destination of wrecks." Mauro Forghieri
"Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications." Steve Robertson
Once again not true as the following written statement of Mauro Forghieri clearly proves:
"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement. In the hope to have been of some helps Have my best" Mauro Forghieri

 

He says the chassis of the original 0846 was not destroyed, just disposed of so he is saying in theory it could exist somewhere still, and goes on to say that the modifications to your chassis have of course been done by someone at some time "elsewhere" ie in addition to the original 0846 conversion.

In no way does he link these two facts together to make a case that they are one in the same chassis. No one knows at this time who converted your chassis, but its evident he does not believe its how the original was modified.

 

One phone call/ conversation would put this to bed once and for all.

"Hello David, can you please tell me who converted the chassis of Piper 003 to accept a p4 engine as its clearly not a P4 chassis"

If the answer is " No idea old boy the chassis was already equipped that way when I bought it" then bingo its looking good thats is been salvaged from a previous P3 spec Ferrari

If the answer is " xxx did it for me when they made/subsequently altered the chassis" then that puts the matter to bed.

I would think Jim is the only one that can instigate that conversation though, David Piper is not going to chat with just anyone about the matter.

I cannot see why David Piper would not answer the question, he has nothing to gain or lose by confirming the course of events, he sold it as a rep at the end of the day.

Edit to add

It could well be he was not that involved in the actual detail, but his long term mechanics will know the course of events, and he could simply check with them.

If he refused to answer the question or was vague in his reply then it also could suggest sour grapes that he let an original chassis slip through his fingers, adding to the hope that they are in fact one in the same, even if Mr MF does not believe so.