The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

After Mauro Forghieri reviewed the actual complete pdf documents in full, what is not clear about this clarification from Mauro Forghieri?

As to Piper and others living in, nay, basking in glorious denial - It's a Brit thing.

 

Mauro Forghieri has not attested to this being 0846. What he has attested to is that certain events of "the day" could have happened so it is no completely ruled out. That distinction still leaves a distance between fact and conjecture.

Jeff

 

What part of:

"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere, perhaps even by another Ferrari departement. In the hope to have been of some helps Have my best"

Mauro Forghieri

are you unable to understand and twist to falsely state: " MF does not believe so." ?

As for David I did ask him point blank when we were both at the Factory and at the time 350 Can Am 0858 was NS at the auction what exactly did he think the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis were AND HE STILL COULD NOT ANSWER THAT SIMPLE QUESTION nor did he know anything beyond what he had told me when I bought that chassis from him. He clearly stated once again that that chassis was made by "The original chassis maker from P4 blueprints that Enzo gave him."

The good things stay the same...

 

Ferrari clearly stated before publishing the fact in their sole discretion that I have been the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 that they first constructed in 1966, what department at Ferrari would have to investigate my submission before Ferrari would allow that to occur. That is fact not conjecture.

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

After receiving the requested information, in their sole discretion, on a website published solely by them, Ferrari clearly and continuously has published the fact that I have been and currently am the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 0846 since July 2000 when I bought it from David Piper. That is pure fact.

Even Pera banned Steve clearly stated exactly what he felt that meant.

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

 

QFT

 

Jim,

You know well that Jess Pourret in his role at Classiche does not accept this as 0846. You also know that the IACPFA also does not accept this as 0846. IACPFA's stance is about more than just the chassis provenance.

Jeff

 

Are we really raking over these coals again? How many times does Jim have to explain, he believes he owns the mortal remains of #0846 built up into a vehicle in the 1970s and has been fully and truly open about what it is and isn't. An ethical point would be that we sideline viewers can make judgement's about our beliefs but that generally means jack. It does become a corrosive issue when people package, repackage and continuously repackage venom in the negative. For example we know the key point is that David Piper MAY know what the chassis was or wasn't when he bought it. The same goes for Tom Meade. But how this adds up to some sort of conclusion that the current day #0846 CANNOT be based on thee original #0846 is as concrete as the conclusion that it is. As always an open mind will lead one to thinking it is possibly based on the part of the original chassis....... And that does agree with Jim's claim.

Key for me is to keep that open mind.

 

Sad that people don't want to find out what it is. Versus just fight over that it is or isn't.

Either Piper built it from scratch or he didn't. If he didn't it's most likely 0846.

If he did, why did he build it to house both P3 and P4 motors and how did he build it to P3 specs with P4 Blueprints? Receipts? Notes? Build orders etc.?

Where and how and when was the car used in which configurations during Pipers ownership, what is the cars timeline under Piper?

What accident damage was suffered under Pipers ownership?

I agree with Tonga, the Piper years are important, whether he is willing to give the correct information up, I doubt, but I do think it is important at deciphering the mystery of the chassis.

Did the chassis survive or not is what we are really talking about in this thread.

 

Jeff

Jess has NEVER carefully inspected 0846 as it exist today. AFAIK he's never even seen it. Who cares what he thinks about it?

Marcel and Keith have inspected it several times and they have both clearly reported in writing that Ferrari P 3/4 0846 owned by me has attended both Quail and Amelia Island. You're faith in an "expert" who has NEVER inspected it as it exists today vrs an Experts who have is laughable.

15 years ago I posted that under Ferrari Classiche's SELF MADE RULES 0846 as it exists today would never be eligible to be Classished. So what? This is news???

Ferrari Classiche and others are entitled to their rules and opinions but the clear fact that Ferrari S.p.A has Continuously in their sole desecration for over 12 years after:

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

published that I am the owner of Ferrari P 3/4 0846 since I bought it from David Piper in 2000 is pure fact. That a legal preceding confirmed this fact and that the time when anyone including Ferrari can challenge that fact passed over 13 years ago is fact. As you know when you repeatedly tried to get me to bring my cars to an event you were organizing that I have no interest in bringing my cars to events to any events that won't even judge them. As I also told you I don't care at all what their conclusion about them is but your silly idea that at the event that I could stand in front of the car with a placard explaining what the car is rather than showing it to the judges remains as silly as it was when you made that proposal.

Marcel and Keith have the Balls to look, Judge and report what they believe. Concours where the Judges don't, don't interest me. There is a huge difference between REAL Legal Judgement and self appointed rules and Judges and Judges who won't even Judge are laughable.

 

There you go again Tonga.

David clearly stated to Nathan and gave Nathan a photo to post "proving" David's statement:

"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine. (See photo which shows 003 fitted with a P3 engine, which it had for years.)
Not the other way round as Glick claims."

Nathan

That forever ended it and proved that David has no idea of the differences between an P3 and a P4 chassis as GTE clearly confirmed.


Old 08-27-2005, 04:53 PM
#4391
Napolis
Join Date: Oct 2002
Full Name: Jim Glickenhaus
Posts: 31,341
The Fat Lady Has Sung
Nathan

I really must thank you and I am being totally serious. You have proved conclusively, once and for all that David is wrong about the chassis that he sold me. This is very big. I assume that your statement is based on your visit with David and what he told you:

"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine. (See photo which shows 003 fitted with a P3 engine, which it had for years.)"

As I know, and can prove, that I did not counterfeit a P3 Chassis the FAT LADY HAS SUNG.

I think you have also proven that you are in search of the truth by proving something that is contrary to what you think it proves.

David stated in writing twice, confirmed to Max and just now as reported by you CONFIRMED that:
"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine."

The chassis David sold me, without realizing just how unique and special it was, WAS BUILT TO P3 PLANS AND MODIFIED, ONCE BY FERRARI S.p.A. to fit a P4 engine and once by David Piper to re install a P3 engine and once again at a later time, by David Piper by adding a FORWARD REACHING TRI ANGLE, NOT PART OF THE CHASSIS, TO RE INSTALLED A P4 ENGINE IN WHAT AGAINST ALL ODDS IS 80+% OF THE REMAINS OF P3/P4 0846'S CHASSIS.

What I assumed would have happened, that the next "Bombshell" would have been David suddenly remembering (By reverse engineering my research) that: "Oh one of the three chassis I built was built to P3 plans, um... because...) but David has not done that. He has spoken what he believes to be true but WHICH IS WRONG. It is EXACTLY the same thing he said twice in writing, to Max, and now to you:

"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine."

It's amazing and quite wonderful that even today David and others do not understand that the physical configuration of my chassis absolutely proves that this is not true.

0003/0846 IS NOT BUILT TO P4 PLANS. That is, was, and remains fact.

#4392
Old 08-27-2005, 05:37 PM
GTE

Quote:
"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine."
Mr Piper is obviously not talking about the chassis in Jim's P4 when he refers to this particular chassis.

A P3-chassis modified to P4 specifications is quite different from a P4-chassis, modified to fit a P3-engine. Almost the exact opposite in fact.

So, when will mr Piper start talking about the chassis in Jim's car?

#4393
Old 08-27-2005, 05:43 PM
dretceterini

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTE
So, when will mr Piper start talking about the chassis in Jim's car?

I can only assume that the answer to that question is never.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Its quite obvious what to make of MF's statements IMO.....when he was given just the pics of the mod'ed chassis he claimed that doesnt look at all like how they did these kind of mods back then. Thats his opinion Im sure.

Then he was given the full pdf....and he realized someone has built a multi million $$$ case that that chassis has connections to the real deal 0846. So now the obvious happens....MF doesnt want to get dragged into this potential costly mess, so he tones down and says "...cant rule it out...". Of course Im sure his opinion hasnt actually changed a bit.

 

and his clear original statement that "Amon was hit by a flying wheel" causing 0846 to catch on fire shows exactly how accurate his memory of events past really is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw

 

Jim, a quick question if I may:

Is it your understanding that Marcel Massini fully accepts/recognizes and endorses your chassis as that of 0846? Does Marcel believe that you have met the burden of proof?

Thanks,

Jeff

 

This will never stop ... amazing.

People who keep asking about what the car was during Pipers ownership are beginning to annoy me. It is well documented. The sale of the car when it was #003 and powered by the 3 litre engine has an article posted in this thread. Photos, everything.

He has been asked many times and states the car is a replica built to P4 plans. Why will this suddenly change?

The only person still worth talking to is the guy that race prepared the car back then and I'm in Australia and via email tried to ask him and either I've got the email address wrong or he does not want to get involved.

Other than that we have Forgheri and I thought his answer to Mr Robertson's (admittedly very leading email) was conclusive but now it appears he's not so sure.

My personal conclusion that will never ever and I mean ever be confirmed: Jim's car may contain a large percentage of #0846's chassis. Everything else on the car is as correct as possible.
Pete

 

+1

But why do people feel the need to absolutely prove it is a fake. Then oh my god Jim has disagreed with me, so I MUST reply with ad hominem attacks by making endless circular arguments to prove my little points. AND if I make enough little points stick I can add them up to PROVE it is a fake. I don't understand the psychology behind it well enough to know what the people playing this little game get out of it. Haven't they got anything better to do?

Jim has been clear about his claims and so far I for one support his conclusion.

 

Asked and Answered.


Marcel and Keith have inspected it several times and they have both clearly reported in writing that Ferrari P 3/4 0846 owned by me has attended both Quail (Marcel) and Amelia Island (Keith).

 

True.

 

Leo Tolstoy's novel War & Peace has 1,300 pages, you guys are a 1/3 of the way there.

 

You are now one of us.

There hasn't been anything new to say for a while but that won't stop the relitigation.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c[/ame]

 

I respectfully disagree.

I think learning as much about what happened during Piper's ownership is important as it gets to figuring out the trail of the chassis origin. Confirm or eliminate possibilities. Pipers claim of original P4 construction of the chassis is contrary to what sits in front of us today.

If he sticks by his statement, then it seems obvious that he was not aware of how 0003 was built and it was most likely built at another time by someone else that knew they were building a P3. Not scratch building a run of P4's. I don't know why there is even a discussion of if he built it from scratch, if he doesn't know what he built? It seems clear cut to me, at least the P3 parts were built somewhere else.

I think it is pretty well accepted at this point by most that the frame was originally P3 construction and later converted to P4. I may be wrong that most accept this?

Ideally Piper would be willing to give some more background on how this oddball came to be? seems unlikely, so I feel looking into its timeline can answer some questions on if it was indeed somehow built from scratch by Piper? Although from his repeated claim I don't see how it could have been?

One thing I would like to know that I haven't seen reference to is: when was the chassis completed? When was the chassis first built into a runner? and what configuration was it built to?

When was it then configured for the other motor? and to which configuration and by whom? Is all of this work believed to be connected to Kerry Adams? How many times did Piper swap these motors and when? What modifications did he have to carry out to do this?

Was the whole Piper run built at the same time? Were all the chassis built by the same Chassis builder? Is the builder for 0003 and the other Piper P4 chassis Vaccari and Bosi?

If all this is well documented, I missed it.

Is there 100% certainty on anything? Who Knows? but confirming or eliminating which scenarios are actually possible and even better probable, versus ones that aren't, can clear up the haze for most.

May not prove it, but would clear up most doubt, in most minds.

 

Vincent,

Pete

 

The key as ever was an item some pages back that link the chassis frame from Tom Meade via a Swiss company in 1974 to David Piper. At this time Marcel Massini witnessed a Chassis that he feels was most likely #0846 and it was definitely the chassis that went into #0003. In 1974 this may not have seemed like vital information and so time flows ever on. The difficulty for all of those trying to make their circular arguments is that David Piper will have many possible reasons for not wanting or not knowing the provenance of the chassis that went into #0003. That could be a complete dead end.

 

Thanks Pete.

Yes, I've read that many times.

This is what perplexes me.

With what is known about the construction of the frame, Originally built as a P3, I can not understand why people would think it was built from scratch at Pipers. You can't build what you don't know you are building. Mostly once it has been built and you still think it was built another way. It just seems clear that it was built by someone else to be what it is in its origin, a P3.

Where is the argument that Piper knew what he was building and actually built it for that reason? But still calls it something else to this day?

Without some logical explanation of that, I can't even begin to think Piper built it. And the only possibility of who built it after that to me is it is the repaired remains of 0846.

Who can build what they don't know they are building? Where is there any logic in that?

How is this Piper's frame if he doesn't know how it was built? Or what it is?