The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

So, it is known as fact that the remains of another chassis were built into 0003?

 

All of this talk about Piper assumes that he wanted to know or cared...

If you or I were assembling a car from the parts available, you would bolt up the transaxle and engine, drop them into the frame and put in the bolts where they fit. You wouldn't care or worry that there were other bolt holes in the frame, you'd put in the bolts that fit where they fit, and you'd be happy it all fit and get on the build. I'm confident that is what happened here. Piper and his mechanics assembled the car with the 3 liter engine, the bolts all fit since the 3 liter was the same setup as the P3 and life went on. The fact that there were other bolt holes in the frame wasn't given a second thought. He may or may not have known or cared that this car was configured to take either engine configuration. He just bolted up parts and so long as it all fit he most likely didn't care. For that reason there is plenty of reason to believe that he may not have known what he had or what it was.

If you go way back through the posts you'll find that there was a discussion that Piper may not have wanted to know this was a frame of a Ferrari, and pay import duties on it in accordance with its pedigree. David has never been swimming in money, and back then things were even tighter. Cars have been "washed" by importing them through different countries to avoid taxes, it's a very common practice. One can very plausibly come up with a lot of reasons (as in lots of lbs sterling) that Piper would not want to declare and import this frame as a Ferrari. If he says he knew what it was and didn't declare it he's liable for a ton of back taxes. If he imported it as simply a "racing car frame" of indeterminate origin, then that's not a crime...

Whether David knew or didn't know, or didn't want to know then or now is something that only he could tell us and he doesn't seem to want to for whatever reason. Being that the case we can go on endlessly as to what he might have known now or at the time, but that is all mere speculation.

As Jim has said a thousand times, the car is what it is, and much of the frame is most likely that of 0846. Beyond that, we only have Mede's dying statement as to where the parts came from (the Ferrari scrap parts pile), and Marcel's witnessing of parts that he believes were 0846 that were headed for Piper's shop based on the shipping documents.

The why and wherefore are most likely lost in time and probably only David can shed light on it if he knew or cared to know, then or now. Bottom line is that it really doesn't matter. Some here are trying to show a chain of custody from when the car was returned to the factory after the Le Mans fire to where it is now, and that's not going to happen. Lots of old cars have gaps in their history and this one does too. So what? The folks who know either forgot, died or don't want to say for whatever reason and that is what it is. The facts are that the pieces that Jim bought from Piper are very likely the remains of 0846 and that they have been restored to represent the car as it won at Daytona, and for that I and many others here are good with that.

 

And every time we re-hash the past, disregard previously discussed information, and continue to go round-and-round with not a single new bit of fact, we once again threaten to loose an exceptional member of this forum. Again...

 

Too true.

There are axes here that have been ground for so long that I'm amazed they still have blades.

 

All too true, but when I read the dissenters posts I keep getting the mental image of a 3 year old stamping his or her feat and endlessly repeating the mantra, I want the truth. At least 3 year olds get bored, some of the posters never do.

 

No, Marcel is reasonably sure that the remains of #0846 had a strange stamping of 08460 which still indicates that it was indeed #0846 but that someone had added a zero for what reason, it simply isnt clear. See the post below for more....

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143032772-post7494.html

My only explanation was that David Piper contracted a contact in Modena (Meade) to build 3 or more P4 chassis and all he cared about was that he could on sell them once his CREW had built them into P4 replicas. He would never have had any reason to come up with identity #08460 for the chassis, for the simple reason he could have conjured up ANY serial from the period BUT he didn't. IMO He didn't even know it had any actual real Ferrari components and I am quite certain that David's hands would never have touched the car until it was built by the aforementioned crew.

 

Hear, hear - terrific post.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I think "solofast" has summed up the story of 0846 as well as is possible under the circumstances and it's nice to see a "happy face" from J.G.We all know however what the missing link is. Considering the back stabbing rendered by the ignorant and a few of the not so ignorant it is not surprising that David Piper has largely stayed out of the fray. He is no "Svengali"[?]and without his participation, this whole discussion is missing the last protagonist left. He has more knowledge and experience with the P series Ferraris than any single person. Enzo Ferrari at least seemed to understand this..Why else would he give David Piper what he did.It may be to late but unless David Piper is brought into the conversation there will be an enormous empty space in this story that may never be filled.Keep this in mind while the "what ifs",maybes,"it's possible that" etc. continue.tongascrew

 

Tonga

No matter how many times you post total BS it remains Total BS.

Piper HAS spoken very clearly and what he said and the photo he gave Nathan to accompany his clearly erroneous statement proved years ago, beyond the shadow of any doubt as GTE pointed out that David does NOT understand the difference between a P3 and a P4 Chassis.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143588481-post8596.html

 

This is one of the best reads so far in (what god admn should be) the twilight of this argument.

There is a piece of Hx whose clock has been reset for another 50 years of wonderful smells and noise.

Just f n c k i n g enjoy what has happened (None of us could ever thank you enough Jim.) and live happy hoping your calendar lines up to see her.

 

That and the fact that Jim has been enjoying this magnificent automobile and sharing the adventures with us on FB and here.

 

So by definition of your comment you think what solofast wrote is "totals BS".You owe him an apology or at least an explanation. tongascrew

 

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Tonga are you really so stupid as to not understand that my total BS was directed solely to you or are you simply trolling?

You keep posting total BS. "Only Piper Know" "Piper hasn't commented"

Piper has clearly commented and posted a photo via Nathan to "prove" his point that actually proves beyond the shadow of any doubt, as GTE noted, that Piper DOES NOT KNOW nor has any idea about the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis.


http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143588481-post8596.html

 

True. True.

 

The issue here, if you would care to focus on it , is not just that David Piper may or may not today or at any time none the difference between a P2 and a P3. The issue here is his history with these cars which started while your were directing some questionable movies. Years later when you joined the game he got you started and was probably the only person around at the time who could have done this for you.You owe him a lot.You would not be where you are today with these cars without the start you got from David Piper.Enzo Ferrari thought enough of him to get him started. I guess "you are no Enzo Ferrari" tongascrew

 

Tonga you're seriously delusional.

The ONLY issues here that matter are whether or not your statement that David has not commented is true and whether or not David understands the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis.

It's clearly not true that David has not recently made a statement and your repeating over and over that he hasn't remains untrue, delusional and bizarre.

As my response proved, beyond the shadow of any doubt, a long time ago that David does not understand the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis your repeated posting that "Piper Knows" is equally delusional .

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143588481-post8596.html

 

Don't worry Jim, I have been called worse. I am continuing to wait for you to say something nice about the man behind all your achievements and show him some respect.You wouldn't be where you are today without David Piper.Wake up.tongascrew.P.S. I could of course say much the same for Sal.

 

You are correct that I wouldn't own 1967 Ferrari 0846 today if David knew the difference between a P3 and a P4 Chassis.

 

I think we should let this thread fade out for a while. No doubt there are questions surrounding 0846, but I think until new information surfaces all we have here is speculation, nothing more.

Maybe one day Mr.Piper will say more about the chassis maybe not. Maybe somebody somewhere will know exactly what Jim has and say so. Until such a time we are going around and around making zero progress.

 

Jim wouldn't be were he is today without David Piper? THATS funny!

 

Yup. The rational part if this thread is over.

Yet again.

 

Me and many others wonder from time to time what's real and what isn't.

I personally have seen this car up close have taken lots of video of the car and had the pleasure of speaking with Jim and Sal. The car is a Ferrari in my mind and Jim and Sal are both super nice and great people to talk to. I just need to get Jim to take me for a ride in this and P 4/5.

 

Yep, David Piper is King of the Ferrari's. All hail King David. Facepalm.