330P #0818 for sale @ Talacrest

History as given by vendor

The car we offer for sale has full red book Ferrari Classiche certification.

Summary of history below.

1964

1964 - Maranello Concessionaires, GB
1964 - Prototype - long tail
1964 March 21st - dnf (transmisson lap 139) 12h Sebring Graham Hill/Joakim Bonnier #24
1964 May 31st - disq. 1000km Nuerburgring Graham Hill/Innes Ireland #142
1964 June 20th/21st - 2nd OA 24h Le Mans Graham Hill/Joakim Bonnier #14
1964 August 3rd - 4th Guards Trophy Brands Hatch Graham Hill
1964 August 29th - 1st OA Tourist Trophy, Goodwood Graham Hill #3
1964 October 11th - 1st OA 1000km Paris, Monthléry Graham Hill/Bonnier 1000km Paris
1964 October 24th - 1st OA Trofeo Bettoja, 3h Monza Graham Hill/Ludovico Scarfiotti

1965
1965 April 25th - dnf 1000km Monza Joakim Bonnier/David Piper #67
1965 May 16th - 9th OA 5th IC 500km de Spa Mike Parkes #1
1965 July 4th - dnf 12h Reims Graham Hill/Joakim Bonnier

1966
1966 - Rosemary Protheroe, UK for Richard Elmer "Dick" Protheroe - rebodied by Drogo in P2 style
1966 April 28th - Fatal accident in practice for TT Oulton Park

1985
1985 October 30th - Sold to Fabrizio Violati

2006
2006 - Cerificate of Authenticity issued by Ferrari Classiche, no. 037F

NO MENTION AT ALL OF ownership between 1966 and 1985....... hmmm

BTW, I am only posting stuff I have found advertised and I have absolutely NO connection to this or any vendor. Link to advertising.
http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/325296/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=20&request%5bfilter%5d%5boffset%5d=0&request%5bfilter%5d%5browcount%5d=6&request%5bfilter%5d%5border%5d=year&request%5bfilter%5d%5bdesc%5d=asc&request%5bfilter%5d%5bdealer%5d=1014

And the original Fchat thread here,
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/130049-court-rule-mystery-cloned-ferrari-2.html

Someone should provide a prize for the most inventive comment, YES?

How much does anyone think this will go for?

 

I always thought #818 was a 275P... Is it correct?

 

Does anyone know what the ruling was in this case?

 

Quattroruote 16 February 2011
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No Italian court would dare rule against Ferrari, would they? Ultimately I dont read Italian Boudewijn so have very little idea what that article says. But if there was a relevant believable explanation for #0818 passing through Piper etc. then that would be in the Talacrest advert. Omitting the ownership trail from 66 to 85 is tantamount to admitting that there may be very little of the actual #0818 in this vehicle today.

 

Main sentence translation: "Today the Tribunal's Court of Modena established for once and for all that the only real Ferrari carrying serial number 0818 is the one of Maranello Rosso." Then a historical background of the dispute is given.

 

I must have missed it, but how did John Collins obtain these Violati cars? Directly from Louwman, or at auction?

 

Miscarriage of justice......?

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143621042-post42.html

 

Interesting perspective.

Multiple stream market. To those who know/care it's (most likely) a reproduction with original engine worth what, £300-700k

Yet in the other stream it may be worth, well many millions more..

 

I wonder why Louwman didn't chose to sell it through Bonhams. The other Violati cars did decently well.

 

Bonhams may have enough on their plate currently, with ownership/provenance issues.....

 

Bonhams certainly would be thinking twice about offering anything less than perfectly honest cars after the #0384AM debacle. As for an Italian court ruling that Violati's car was the only #0818, you would too if Ferrari had stated that it was such AND if Violati was a long standing Ferrari client AND Italian AND had errr "connections" well its either that or an Austrian who was not a big purchaser of Ferrari's and didn't have any. My understanding is the court appointed expert was an expert that has a lot of links to Ferrari and so the wheels of justice turn (pun intended).


BTW, whoever suggested that both cars get merged into one, I agree and in another time and place that will happen but for now a perfect 250P is worth perhaps $20 million, and both of these are worth $10 - 15 million as they stand, so financially doing so would put you well underwater................

Anyway, happy new year..... 2015, the Ferrarichat year of the prancing horse.

 

Just had a very interesting chat with John Collins at Talacrest.

Regarding 0818:
The purchase 'includes' both 0818's and only both 0818's; the Violati and Hofer cars (and original purchase docs etc). John Collins has both cars.

If the purchaser wants to keep the Classiche certified car as it is, the Hofer car will be destroyed.

If the purchaser wants to merge the two cars, that will be arranged. Even by Ferrari.

Whatever happens only one 0818 will remain.

 

Wow, only in the world of old cars could a dealer be selling 2 cars that are the same S/N.

 

That is interesting indeed and definately a pleasant surprise. Also probably the best outcome for Egon Hofer in the current situation after that highly questionable court ruling. Hopefully within a few years we'll see 0818 on the street again incorporating every surviving original bit.

 

How much original 0818 is in either car at this point?

Hopefully for the next owner, a great deal, if that individual even cares about such things.

 

Wow. That will resolve all issues, unless they scrap the Hofer car and forever pass off an OHOS of questionable integrity as the real thing. Could well happen if it sells to an investor rather than a educated connesieur

 

Good possibility Then there would be one generally recognized as the original. The other chassis could then become a replica rebuilt with manufactured replacement parts and sold and owned as a reproduction/replica and for considerably less $$$ Comments? tongascrew

 

No according to 250P conversation with mr Collins, there will be only one car retained. Which car will be decided by the purchaser. Either way it will be the Ferrari certified car but whether that will be kept as it sits or whether Ferrari will be asked to (at great expense) rebuild with the original Hofer parts & chassis fitted remains to be seen. Either way, there will be one and only one claimant to being 0818.

If you leave a replica with no parts but for a previous claim to being #0818, then in years to come some dealer or owner will appear saying I believe my car is the "real" 0818. Look it has a stamping in some weird place and is registered in Kazakstan as such......... Better to scrap it imo.

 

Once sold who says the new owner has to scrap either of them. I would assume he would keep the one approved by the court. He will always have the legal documents to verify this.If he replaces any parts with parts from the Hofer car, as long as they are verified by Ferrari[Classiche} as being "original" this should not change anything.He can always go back to the court and get a decision accepting that the parts reinstaled in the car were the originals.The are countless reproduction.recreated Ferraris out there.What's wrong with one more as long as it is accurately done and no effort is made to clame it anything other than a replica. tongascrew

 

One for show, one for play, best of both worlds

 

Errr, was basing that on the sellers description which was mentioned earlier in this thread which I perhaps took a little too literally, wondered maybe if there was some covenant or other or requirement from vendor? I agree that you could keep two cars and that may be the best of both worlds. Ala Monteverde's Le Mans winning 917, the real for show and the fake for go. But, having said that the downside is the claiming, whinging and BS that you get when there are two cars that could have parts from a single identity. Has anyone read some of what was on the 250LM #6045 thread, the gist of discussion being that Ferrari/ DK Engineering took all of the original parts from both existing cars (that have any original parts, baring in mind that there are replica's out there) and put them into one. Various posters with all sorts of axes to grind then kept asking which of the original 6045 was being sold and made all sorts of claims to provenance. As long as there are two 0818's out there, even if it is stated that one contains all the original parts and the other contains the rest (call it 0818R) who is to say that someone wont claim that 0818R was actually the .......... fill in the BS claims here .......... All entirely academic considering I have ohhhh probably 14.999 million pounds less than the asking price but will be fascinating to watch the outcome.

 

Hi, no you took it correctly;
As per post 14 above. According to the vendor only one 0818 will remain. That's in the contract.

 

The only way the contract can be completely enforced is for there to be a public and fully recorded and witnessed event where by the "other car is completely destroyed {melted down}.I suppose blocks from the melted remains could be sold off as collector items. Ashes to ashes...However this really should not even be considered.In today's world where record keeping has become an obsession there will be no way that any "reproduction
or replica" could claim to be anything else.Ok there is a sucker born every day but that wont change anything.Both seller and buyer won't have a leg to stand on and the replica can be enjoyed for exactly what it is. tongascrew