Request opinion regarding E-Type restoration

Gentlemen, Ladies,

I went to look at an E-Type FHC for my next restoration project… I've known of this one sitting in storage and here's what I found today… I'd like your opinions - whether you'd proceed or pass..

It has 37,500 miles. Owner says it's a 1967 he bought "as is" and parked in his barn in '84. Series 1: Marker lights are above the bumpers. Closed headlights, split bumpers front and rear, plus spinner knockoff rims. I think these are great features. Looks like the early seats, but I'm not sure. I don't think a '67 would have 'flat floors'.

Unknowns:
- Why the engine was taken apart.
- Owner says it's a 4.2, but I don't know.
- 2carb or 3carb is unknown. Carbs are in separate indoor storage.

I know enough to get myself into - and out of - trouble. I've found my way around recommissioning a quite rough Maserati Bora, and I've spent 6 years restoring a Plymouth Satellite with one-year-only trim (meaning: expensive, hard to source, takes skill to straighten and restore) which began with conditions not too unlike this E-Type..

The owner is asking $12k, and I think he'd take 10% less if I showed up with cash .. I'm not a member on any E-Type forums yet… so I ask kindly for your opinions:

1.) "Yes! Go for it! Write the check. It'll take 6 years, but parts and know-how are available for everything you need! Worst case scenario, sell it or part it!"
2.) "Hide your checkbook you fool, it might look like 6 years, but it'll take 12 and kill you in the process".

Thank you,
- Art.

Photos in the links below…

















The front:












Condition - 37,455 miles on the odo. Straight 6 engine is all apart, rusted and needs everything - rebore cylinders, maybe new crank. Carbs, manifolds, heads and valve covers are off and safe inside heated storage elsewhere. Bottom pan is sitting on the floor all chalky. Owner says it's a 4.2 but I couldn't say. I don't know if it's a 2 or 3 carb engine.
She's been sitting for 30 years. Body is intact other than engine and some interior is apart. Trim is mostly there, missing a latch or two, some sill trim and a door panel. All glass appears fine. New carpet comes with the car. The upper body has little corrosion, just a bad old repaint and filthy. No significant body damage, but minor denting. Rear hatch, doors and hood all open and close cleanly.
Firewall has little significant rust. Front suspension bushings dried out and surface rusted. Bottom of car shows surface rust on some areas, but not others. Grimy oily deposits on rear diff and suspension box appear as I'd want them to - not rusted but nice and covered by old oil. I can see rust-through only at passenger side lower leading edge where the channel enters into the engine bay. Floors are unknown condition, but I can see rust on driver's floor. Interior appears "OK", instrument panel looks serviceable. Top of dash needs reupholstering. Under dash looks questionable. Headliner is good.

If you are rubbing your temples to ward off a headache right now, forgive me.

Thanks again,
- Art

 

Car needs to be restored, so who is doing it you or someone else? Jags can rust from the inside out and if it was repainted who knows what lies beneath the paint. However as prices are soaring and if you can get it that cheap, buy it and you can always sell of the bits at a great profit if the car proves to be too much of a project. Almost looked like a 2+2 in one photo, but I believe it is a coupe.

67 was last year for covered headlights and it will be 4.2 liter and should have 3 carbs on it. Seats look right for 67 and bumpers are correct.

Good luck in the project.

Had a 65 XKE OTS, if I ever get another it would be a coupe.

 

Thank you very much,
I am also quite sure it's not a 2+2. It just didn't have "that look", and there was no evidence of legroom behind the seat. I hope to get its car number today.

The restoration would be the same approach I've taken before - A combination of skilled workshops within driving distance of me, plus my own efforts.
- Start with full running documentation and disassembly in my garage, then separate the work.
- Send the shell and sheet metal to my favorite body man for any corrosion repair straightening and paint, reinstall glass. We pick the color together, usually have him to the "pretty painting" and let me strip & refinish the undersides and undercoating back in my garage.
- Collect all engine bits and if my own favorite engine shop passes on it, send it to a reputable engine shop (search Hemmings for nearby shop) for rebuild.
- Assess what needs to be done with transmission and differential and send out accordingly.
- Send upholstery bits to my favorite upholsterers.
- In my garage I take care of all grunt work, scraping, sandblasting, acquiring nuts & bolts, bracketry, new parts, interior cosmetics, wiring, instruments, switches, reconditioning of suspension and misc drive components, all brake work, fuel lines, fuel tank, rechroming, etc…
- Reassembly occurs back in my garage.
- Engine run in.
- Shake down drives.
- Troubleshooting.
- Done.

Works for me.
Best,
- Art

 

Unless you're capable of completing a majority of the work yourself I'd pass. The metal-work alone looks daunting. And if you get that motor spinning again is it the original?

I have a '65 OTS for reference.

 

The question is an easy one....FHC= PASS.

 

Sent you a pm.

 

Hello, having done my share of rebuilds of XKEs This would be a challenge, unless you have a LOT of money or a LOT of time. If you dont have the time, you better have the money. On Ebay there are drivers that do cost more, but there ready to go and restore. I remember Dino 246s 25yrs ago you could get cheap and fix up and a lot of people passed on them and those people are now regretting that. So who knows, its what you can do now with what you got. As a Ferrari or a Jag they aren't cheap to fix up. Coupes dont always have the same love when it comes to re-sale to recover your investment. Thanks Norm

Jaguar E Type Series One | eBay

Jaguar E Type Two Door | eBay

 

It is definitely a 2plus 2. On the passenger (and drivers) side you can see the tell tale chrome trim just below the rear quarter window. A FHC would not have any chrome below this window. Note the trim is missing on the doors, coupes and 2plus 2s have different trim on the doors too.

It also has 2 windshield wipers, a coupe would have 3. The windshield and side windows are also to big for a coupe but that can be difficult to see in photos that have some lens distortion.

Cheers Jim

 

Thank you for your concise comments.
Good eyes Muira400, dwhite had the same suspicion… I had another look at it today and, yes it's a 2+2. Is being a 2+2 a detractor among E-Type aficionados? It has 3 wiper posts, but just two wiper arms.

The car number is 1E76755
Body number AE52259
Engine number 7E52339
Gear box EJS 1059

The floors were not rusted through, the metal overall really isn't that bad as far as my experience goes. The nose opening shows the most distress. Otherwise there isn't much straightening to do. The owner located most of the missing parts, headlight glass & trim, 3 SU carbs, the head with new gasket set, intake and exhaust manifolds, cam shafts, new set of pistons & rings, new carpeting, the driver's door panel. It is missing the passenger seat and the spare tire w/rim...the owner said it was missing when he bought it.

Thank you for your time and suggestions for alternative restoration cars. Those eBay auctions make the price for this car seem very reasonable.

Rear bed and fuel tank photos:







Misc other parts;







Floor pans;






Happy New Year!
- Art

 

Yes....on both looks and value.

 

buy a restored car.

 

Assuming that it's a 2+2, you'll be upside down in a hurry trying to restore that car. Even if you bring it back to driver condition, you will not recovery your investment in the near future. There's a significant difference in value between a FHC and a 2+2. Even if you bring it back to #2 condition, you're probably looking at a $50-$60k car assuming that it's numbers matching. It'll cost you a lot more to get it to #2 condition than it'll be worth - unless you do all the work yourself.

Fwiw . . . . The car number confirms that it's a 2+2. The series 1 2+2 cars' numbers started with IE7XXXX. The number that's stamped on top of the front chassis member should match the car number on the builder plate. The 7EXXXXX engine number signifies that is indeed a 4.2 Liter E-type Series 1 or 1.5 engine. You can read the engine number on the side of the block (intake side, below the head). The gear box number can be read by removing the center console and then removing an access plate. Both numbers should match those on the builder plate.

 

IMO the big question is whether you like a 2+2 well enough to invest the energy, time and money. Are you over 6 feet tall ? Do you have small children ? A 2+2 would be much more useable in these cases. While the somewhat bloated look of the 2+2 is undoubtedly less attractive than the FHC and OTS, I would personally rank a Series 1 2+2 as more attractive than any of the federalized later series.

The apparent rust on top surfaces suggests that what's visible on the bottom might be more from the outside in rather than vice versa. The seats and everything else look original. The manual gearbox is a plus (many 2+2s were automatics). If the mileage is real this looks to me like a decent candidate for restoration, maybe even a bargain.

Unlike Italian cars, almost every part of an E-type is available in quality reproduction from multiple suppliers. E-types are extraordinarily well documented, with originality guides that document changes down to the serial number. The network of support is very broad and deep. For their era, however, they are relatively complex cars, and certain tasks (e.g. reattaching the bonnet) can be challenging. In compensation, Lyons insisted that every part of the car should be beautiful, so there is particular pleasure in an E-type restoration.

The infrastructure and increasingly high prices reflect the reality that few collector cars can rival the combination of looks, performance and driving characteristics. The engineering heritage of late-50s 'golden era' sports-racers is far more apparent in E-types than anything else on the road. I owned one 40 years ago, have another today, and there is nothing worth less than $1MM that I'd rather drive, although the longer wheelbase of a 2+2 might be slightly less responsive.

Contrary to other views, I would advise against buying a restored car. JCNA and general concours judging unfortunately reward over-restoration, and I was aghast to see every E-type at the Quail this year pimped out with wide white-walls. Prices have increased so much recently that there is plenty of room to cover restoration costs.

My 38k-mile '67 OTS was restored by Terry Larson to match original factory finishes, albeit with better assembly quality. It's parked about an hour east of Albany, if seeing a finished car would be of any help.

Don

 

Thank you all - and malex and Don.

You hit all the significant points; I am not partial to the proportions of a 2+2, I am a comfortable 5'-6" (albeit with 3 youngsters), I have the means and thus not dependent on the market to determine whether a restoration is "worth it" or not. The big picture is I would absolutely take this on if it was an FHC. But sadly it is a 2+2 and my heart would not be committed to it.

From the viewing angles as it sits in the barn, the 2+2 proportions aren't immediately apparent, which I credit the stylists for. Based on that "first impression" I wish I could reconsider, but no, I have to be honest and say it would always nag at me.

What I found attractive about this car is its private sale, I can go there and see it in person, it has early Series features, and its "all there" compared to the relative shells offered for sale as restoration projects. It appears to have some local history. It has spent its entire life in upstate NY, and previous owner sounds like quite a characters, so it may have some local lore from its "youth". It would be nice to have it remain here, restored and connected to its past.

The availability of parts and the prodigious enthusiast support is something I'm aware of by proximity within the car hobby. It makes E-Type ownership one with very low "barriers to entry". Alfa's certainly enjoy the same position, and the Maserati I also find very easy to source parts for - imagine NOS corner marker lights for $44.00 each!?

Thank you Don,
You portray an attractive ownership experience, and that is a very kind offer I'd like to take you up on after the New Year some time. It's worth noting I don't treat my classics with white gloves, restored or not. They all get driven as often I can, sometimes against the clock at the track, to the limits I am comfortable with, and problems that crop up from such abuse get attended to. So an E-Type in this condition would get a restoration, but not with the intent of collecting trophies. Just solid and nice enough to look at - which speaks to your point; I don't "need" a restored car.

The goal is to drive it.

Best wishes to you all for the New Year,
- Art

 

^ plz post pictures. we love pics. agree, the wide whitewalls are not my cup of tea, but, jaguar did show their cars that way at major auto shows in the 60's.im a fan of the thin whitewall though as i think only a jag etype can pull it off being a sportscar.
imho,only a series 1 roadster can be restored w/o being upside down. everything else is a gamble.

 

Just another opinion
Nothing facetious just factual

I have owned 7 different E types in past 25 years
I understand the dedication one can have
If it were an OTS, maybe i would go for it
If it were free
If it was an FHC
Would not think twice would not do it
A 2+2 is akin to an edsel, just not desireable to many
You will go against the grain if you take this project on
1% of the population will understand you
Just that you make sure you understand that this was the least desirable model Jag ever made
If you are hell bent do it
I believe it will cost more than you could ever imagine as nothing that i see makes sense to rebuild
A rebuilt part exists for cheaper than you can restore it for
I believe to do it at an acceptable level
You will spend 100 thousand dollars in parts and labor
Most 2+2's were automatics
And the sport in a long wheelbase series 1car is non existant
I suggest you keep looking
There are many more project cars more deserving attention
Either way , best of luck

 

Interesting exchange of views.

In recent years I have purchased, restored and sold a few cars that conventional wisdom has found ungainly (e.g. Alfa Giulietta SS, Maserati A6 1500) - but well done in the right colors, they each auctioned for considerably above pre-sale estimates. Looking at Hagerty's valuation website, I would guess that Series 1 2+2s are approaching the upswing recently seen in FHCs. There is some genuine benefit from the taller windshield and more spacious cockpit. People are now doing serious restorations of Series 2 cars that I find insufferably ugly and underpowered.

XKE Data - Keeping track of every Jaguar E-Type - Jaguar E-Type (XKE) information, articles, photos and register is a good place to browse for colors and body types. Without preconceived notions, the Series 1 2+2s in dark colors look better than almost anything else of the era. They will be better accepted soon.

It's true that parts replacement is easier and cheaper than repair, but with the restoration approach that Art described (ascribing zero value to his own labor) I'd anticipate that the restored value would comfortably exceed the cost.

The greatest disadvantage of E-types in my view is the labor involved in keeping a fresh appearance while driving in less clement conditions, given the complexity and exposure of the engine compartment. It's a wonderful car to drive hard, but on a sunny day.

 

Very interesting and useful exchange, indeed.

Before I knew this particular E-Type was a 2+2, I looked it over with optimism and admired the styling. It would not be "fair to the car" to claim I suddenly don't like its looks, just because I now know it's a 2+2. So if I am to switch "styling" into the list of positives, I might as well assess all the positives. It has a 4-speed, closed headlights, spinner knock-off wire rims and bumper styles that I like. And the extra seating, which is useful for our young kids, can be a solid "positive" in the equation...

Having just read through a Restoration Profile of the E-Type by Hemmings I am sobered by the ample warnings and cautions about the pitfalls of an E-Type. Especially the untreated metal within the monocoque structure. Which is totally consistent with your responses here, and with a private conversation I'm having with an online friend who owns an E-Type alongside his Dodge muscle cars. He also comment on his trials keeping the under-bonnet clean.

What am I trying to say?...

- I will definitely reconsider my aversion to the 2+2.
- I will definitely not make an offer on this example until I get it inspected by someone who knows a lot more than I do about E-Types.

I'll post again, when or if, this proceeds. My hunch is, even if a 2+2 is in my future, it won't be this one.
- Art

 

2+2's and Coupes commonly trade for about 1/2 the price of an OTS yet they all cost the same to restore. So, if you want a 2+2, the smart money play is to buy the best restored one you can find and drive and enjoy it. IMO, same logic applies to coupes as the value isn't there in paying to restore one, although coupes are on the move and the market may make restoring a coupe a fair economic proposition. If you're excited about an e-type restoration project, I would suggest doing an OTS.

 

I don't know about later cars, but series 1 FHCs have already moved up and are now generally 65-70% the value of OTS cars, while 2+2s are 40-45% - for equivalent year, equivalent condition cars.

 

This is conventional wisdom, but the market is constantly re-pricing. There are many instances of a "less desirable" model coming to the auction market with a high quality restoration in good colors, and the market re-prices off the sale of a single car. I've found anticipating the market to be fun and quite profitable. The decision horizon for the original poster is the several years that restoration will require, which makes current market conditions much less relevant.

Moreover, how many unmolested but solid Series 1 E-types are still out there ? An OTS in the same condition would likely cost five to ten times as much, if you could find one. For anyone personally involved in the restoration work, it is vastly more pleasurable to bring back an unmolested original car than to cope with sorting out the mistakes and inauthenticities inflicted by others. If the body is generally solid, I think this particular car is a wonderful opportunity for a DIY restorer.

 

I own a 1969 Jaguar XKE FHC that I'm restoring, purchased a 1969 Jaguar Saloon donor car for $500.00 just for the parts.

I find prior to any car purchase to research the completed sold section of eBay to gauge current model/s value/s.

Here are recent examples of sold Jaguar 2+2's.

You will quickly realize the Jaguar you are interested in is overpriced even at $8,000.00 when you see what a complete nice driver can be purchased for.


RUN FORREST RUN!!!

jaguar 2+2 | eBay

cars highlighted in green lettering indicate sold examples.

Here's a nice example that sold for $22,100.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jaguar-E-Type-1-5-Series-2-2-Coupe-1968-jaguar-e-type-1-5-series-2-2-coupe-one-owner-low-miles-/251726358236?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3a9c0f66dc&item=251726358236&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Even if you purchased the car you are looking at for $9,000.00 would $13,100.00 in parts & labor bring you to the level of the car at $22,100.00?

 

Thank you John,
That's pretty sobering, and I'll have a good look at those as "comps" before jumping. The "barn find" has going for it the 4speed and all the Series 1 features I like, which narrows down the comps a bit, but those prices are hard to beat. Corrosion is what I'll be looking deeper into again, probably Friday. Hope to share more interesting pics and info then.
Cheers,
- Art

 

Hello, this is correct. Same as what I was alluding too earlier. In Short RUN away from this car. To me at best its a parts car.

 

I agree. There is no financial justification for starting this project. Better to buy a finished or well sorted car. This car only makes sense to restore if there is a family history or some other sentimental connection to this particular car - which is not the case.