Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday! | Page 16 | FerrariChat

Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday!

Discussion in '612/599' started by trygve11, Jul 4, 2014.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. NYC Fred

    NYC Fred F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 28, 2010
    16,105
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Fred C
    And we can find the live webcast of the event where?

    C'mon, Jason. The fans deserve it...LOL
     
  2. Ferocity

    Ferocity Rookie

    Jan 14, 2012
    33
    Wow! I log in for the first time in a while and I come across your thrilling thread. And I've arrived at the climax too!

    You're so close now. Wishing you all the best!
     
  3. Flash G

    Flash G Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 24, 2006
    36,567
    Hollywood Hills
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    I just read this thread from beginning to page 18. Unbelievable. Such a good read.

    Fantastic job, Jason. I wish I had a tenth of your skill. Keep the updates coming. On a scale of 1 to 10, this thread is an 11.
     
  4. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    Hey guys... drumroll please...

    Well. I have good news and bad news.

    The good news is that the car started right up! Sounds just like it did before only the misfire (from a bad cylinder 6) is gone. But some issues persist.

    As backdrop, please remember this car was the victim of a hydrolocked motor. This means the intake scoops picked up water and the engine digested it. Smack! Water doesn't compress real well. So, I've taken care of all of the engine repairs (some twice ;-) and there is still a notable issue...

    I may not have posted before that when I started the car before (after the 1st rebuild), the headers on the passenger side seems to blow much less air out of them and were much colder. So I went digging back a couple months ago and found that I had a bad cylinder- which I have now fixed.

    Well, like anyone else, you'd likely assume that's it! One issue. Fix that and the car is fixed. But alas, that doesn't seem to be the case. I've had about a hundred issues on this car and I've resolved most of them (interior and exterior). But it appears my issue related to the cold air coming out of the passenger side exhaust headers is not solved by my repairing the one bad cylinder (the bent valves).

    It appears I have an engine management issue. I now need to determine what the issue is. Essentially the car is running on the driver's bank only. Or just mildly on the passenger bank. So far I've checked fuel pressure, injector pulse, pulled to rail out to confirm pulse, swapped left and right ECUs and the problem still exists...

    Well recall that the car ingested water. That water would have made its way past the air-mass sensor, through the (electronically controlled) throttle body and into the motor. I've resolved the motor part. And know the ECUs are fine. So, my current hypothesis is that I have a bad MAF (mass airflow sensor), bad throttle body, or a wiring issue. I doubt it is the wiring issue but I need to check the schematics to see if there is a fuse or relay external to the ECU that interacts with the MAF or throttle body. My leading guess is that all the water ruined the passenger MAF or throttle body.

    The remarkable thing is that you can literally feel the difference at the headers in terms of air flow and heat. Also, the passenger headers don't heat up at all while you can literally see the driver's header's catalyst begin glowing red!

    So, like I said, looks like engine management. I will need to apply my experience (from 20 years ago) as a engine management engineer at Ford to try to solve this issue. I will start with a review of the schematics. I will then exchange the MAF and then throttle body from one side to the other. Then start pinning out wires to ensure there isn't a break going to the ECU.

    Never a dull day bringing a 612 back from the dead!

    Until next weekend...

    - Jason
     
  5. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
    Hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

    Glowing red doesn't sound good either... You must be getting a series of codes if you have one bank not running and the other producing glowing red cat. Perhaps it would be helpful to get an SD2/3 on it, but maybe more productive once you have used basic measures to get further along. Do you have means to verify spark and fuel to cold bank? Have you swapped throttle bodies and MAF sensors side to side to verify your theory?

    Good luck.
     
  6. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    I haven't swapped them yet... BUT upon a deeper read of the schematics, it appears there is what is called a "motor driven throttle emergency switch". It is under the passenger footwell (for the RHS) and is right where some water got it. I bet that is my problem. Either the throttle body saw water, pulled too much current and popped that switch, or the switch saw water and popped or burned up. Either way, that controls whether or not the throttle plate is able to open beyond an idle condition! Tomorrow I will make a quick check of it!

    On the catalyst getting red comment, let me clarify. That is looking into an open header, directly at the honeycomb material. That SHOULD get red. You don't want the overall, integrated header and catalytic converter assembly getting red from the outside, but the internal catalyst material should get red hot!

    Stay tuned!
     
  7. Julia

    Julia F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2014
    8,939
    Houston
    I'm glad to see an update, Jason, but I'm sorry the car still has issues. I hope that the switch is all it is.
     
  8. kens

    kens Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 25, 2006
    1,335
    Great work Jason, thanks for the update.

    While I am really only familiar with Alfa Romeo fuel injection, Bosch functionality should be the same. Earlier FI required that the AFM had to be attached/operational for engine operation. With air-mass sensor and electronic throttle body, there is the ability to unplug the air-mass sensor. With air-mass sensor unplugged, the throttle position is used to obtain drive-home FI mapping. So, you might be able to test the suspect air-mass sensor just by unplugging it.

    Best regards,
    Ken
     
  9. r0sco

    r0sco Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2011
    114
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Ross
    Hey Jason - this might be a complete red herring, but fwiw, I have had the dreaded "Engine Control System Failure - Go to Dealer" alarm on my 612 on two occasions. The dealer found the fault lay in what they called the air flow meter each time, first one bank then the other, and they replaced them. However, even though a meter was faulty, there was no impact on engine power, smoothness or general driveability. So I'd be surprised if a faulty flow meter caused such poor performance on that bank.
    Hopefully you have found the problem with the throttle switch. You deserve a change of luck!!
     
  10. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    Well, more disappointments.

    All the wiring to the MAFs and electronic throttles are fine. Including the emergency switches. I even swapped the MAFs and throttles from bank to bank, but same outcome. Driver's bank perfect, passenger bank not firing.

    I have fuel pressure, injector pulse, spark.

    I then went a found a major ground loose (very) at the bell-housing (my $10/hour assistance and friend never tightened it). So that could wreak havoc.

    Also found a broken connector on the passenger crank sensor. I don't think it was failing but it is a possibility. A resistance check suggests it is fine but that only accounts for two terminals of the three.

    So, if the bad ground was causing some ground loop failure and the crank sensor isn't the issue, I will then go back and re-check spark and fuel, and look at the power wiring to the passenger side electronic throttle. One last step will be to put a boroscope in the intake and check the throttle plate by camera to see if it is actually opening when I depress the throttle. If not, more wiring and control checks are in order.

    Thankfully I have the detailed electrical schematics...

    Not losing hope... just incredibly complicated and trying resolution. Hope for the ground being the culprit! I wouldn't be surprised.
     
  11. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Jason, no codes? I realise you don't have access to an SD2 or 3, but the generic readers should give you enough info that you can then manually translate from the code listings here.
     
  12. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    No codes. That would be too easy! ;-)
     
  13. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
    Are you following proper start-up procedure after disconnected battery?
     
  14. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    Probably not! What is that procedure exactly?

    Thanks!
     
  15. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    Thanks! But now I will never know if it was the start-up sequence, the loose ground or the crank sensor!
     
  16. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
    Even during normal use the mid-engine V8s, 360/430, can have a tendency to start on only one bank if you don't wait for the "ok" before cranking... A bit finicky, but shut-down and proper re-start solves that particular "issue".
     
  17. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    That would be WONDERFUL!
     
  18. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,782
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    I can testify from personal experience that the same applies for the 612.
     
  19. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    I hope you are right! I will try it, along with the new crank sensors and fastened ground strap next weekend...

    Thanks!

    - Jason
     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,980
    socal
    I'm with Ken. I have not tried with a current production car but I run cars w/o the MAF. Car will default to TPS. It will run on a stored Map and not pass smog but you won't notice it. Running on the TPS is called alfa-N. Low level racers set up simple aftermarket engine management to run alfa-N because it is easy and most don't have access to required dyno time to fully program a good system like a Motec with all the sensors.

    A bad crank sensor will definitely shut down a bank.
     
  21. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,948
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    If you have spark, and fuel on the bank that is not "running", I hate to say it, do a compression test, on both banks and compair the numbers. Your timing could be out.

    You have already swapped the usual suspects, let's check the basics.
     
  22. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    I have checked the basics though. Timing, fuel, spark, compression. It is all right. I think the crank sensor is cracked at the connector but fine. By not going through the start up procedure, the car may be confused by not having calibrated one ecu to the other. Interestingly enough, the rhs throttle plate and wires route to the lhs and vice versa. And that is by design and also reflected in the schematics that these Ecus need to know what the other is doing and the start procedure may be the time that this info is communicated. Or the loose ground may have been factor.
     
  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Chuck on carbs ... problem probably solved.

    I must admit by now I'd be taking the car to a Ferrari specialist and plugging it in to their computer. 30 minutes work and cost will like have this resolved.
    Pete
     
  24. trygve11

    trygve11 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Aug 20, 2008
    740
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Jason Hagen
    That's no fnn but it could come to that eventually. That being said, that's 500 miles away for me.

    I think there may be a local guy though with an SD3.
     

Share This Page