2015 new chassis/engine rumors thread

Im also thinking they will have learned from Renault as well.

 

I think the rules are fair now, even if they're not what was intended by FIA initially.
Who is carrying his engine design from the previous season is allowed to develop it, who has a completely new design like Honda, should homologate early.
Otherwise everybody would just change the name on their engines, start each year with a new design and develop it through the season.

 

If ther's someone they should have learned from is themselves from when they pulled out of the sport and their car won the year after and with a Mercedes engine.

 

That too.

Renault only made engine related mistakes.

 

Looks mclaren a season is over before it has even started... Oh well...

 

There's no real Fia sanctioned rules for engine suppliers and teams to abide by, especially if a team is going to another engine manufacturer in what is currently a highly unique situation seeing as how the new formula is so new and the new manufacturer has zero in-season data. A dispute such as this would have to be reviewed by way of contractual obligations set forth in Mercedes' contracts to private teams and the -I'm certain- highly detailed antitrust language. How everything is policed is anyone's guess but we're about to find out how effective it was

 

We are talking about motor sport guys, not production car making. If somebody copied your ideas then you didn't keep them secret enough.

There was no patenting in motor sport from 1900 to ~2000 and absolutely no need. I think I am talking to people that are relatively new to motor sport and F1 ... maybe?
Pete
ps: NJB13, production car relevance does not mean they use production car components but that they develop the technology in motor sport ... so again no need for patenting.

 

Igor, a car cannot race with an PU that is not homologated. So, Honda must homologate before the season starts, and that will be their 2015 PU. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes already have homologated engines. They cannot run the 2014 PU in modified form unless it is homologated in that modified form. Once they homologate their 2015 PU it is locked down until the 2016 homologation. So, they cannot use their updated PU until they are finished updating it and have had it homologated. Continuing to develop it during the season is sort of a misnomer, since they cannot use the updates as they come along, only once they are all completed and homologated for 2015.

 

All true.

No sir!..... At least according to Autosports story on the matter;

The way I read that is Honda are indeed (rightfully, as a new entrant) locked in with whatever they submit at the first race.

The others OTOH, can use their seasons tokens as they wish throughout the season.

I'd guess they'll all have used, I dunno, half of them by Melbourne. But, they can then introduce further upgrades all through the season as long as they don't use more than 32 tokens total. Would be very unfair to give Honda 32 tokens for their first year that the others didn't have last year......

Cheers,
Ian

 

...and who knows, there might be some things they've seen in the Merc PU that they feel can be improved upon as well.

 

Just so long as Honda gets 32 in 2016 while the rest get 20.

 

I wouldn't bury that body just yet. The Honda PU may not be the best right out of the box, but there's really no way to know for sure. Merc nailed it in year 1. So could Honda.

 

Yes. I believe it is fair this way and don't see why the FIA had different rules to start with. It would have been too much of an advantage IMO if both new and old engines were due to an early homologation, because new engine makers could start from a clean sheet, copying previous year's best solution, while others couldn't change that much.
It is only right then that who had an homologation from last year is allowed to make changes whenever they like it as long as they stay inside their tokens.

 

Unfortunately that is not the way the FIA wrote the tech regs. The tokens are available year by year. 32 tokens in 2015, 20 tokens in 2016...

God only knows what they intended, but it doesn't say first year, second year...It is clearly set up on a calendar year basis.

APPENDIX 4 : ANNUAL F1 POWER UNIT HOMOLOGATION, page 88-89
Federation Internationale de l'Automobile[0]=field_regulation_category%3A82

 

Fast Ian, the reason I say that teams cannot use updated PUs as they are u[dated during the season is what it says in the FIA Sporting regs:

APPENDIX 4
POWER UNIT HOMOLOGATION
2. A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit."

So, the 2014 PU with one modification would break that rule, it would be a different specification of the already homologated 2014 PU. Unless it were homologated as the 2015 PU. Therefore, manufacturers will have to accumulate all of their updates and submit them for homologation. The loophole is, when the homologation date falls, not that there are multiple dates.

BTW, I have written and negotiated contracts as big or bigger than the FIA regs. If I had even been a party to contracts so poorly written, I would have been shot.

 

Exactly! There is alot from each they ascertain and attempt/try or discard. Honda are full of clever people as well. The focus for them is the motor/PU this time. Chassis integration as well but the car/chassis is a Mclaren issue firstly.

 

i.e. Fernando goes from the frying pan into the fire

 

Nope.... At least the way they're interpreting it that means no manufacturer can homologate more than one design. It's a Merc, or whatever, they can't have a 'Merc-design#1' and a 'Merc-design#2'.

I don't think so!

They could get into a debate over exactly what constitutes a change in 'specification', but the problem, which it seems the FIA have accepted is;

This means that they (other than Honda) are now free to use up to 32 tokens this season prior to submitting it for homologation at some point during (after?) the season as their 2015 PU. Once that's done, they're down to 20 tokens, currently free of any date restrictions, to change in their 2016 units and so on.

What the FIA appear to have missed, along with many teams and us in the peanut gallery, is a change to the regulations saying "no later than Date-2015 for the 2015 season".

Again, despite the seemingly constant belief here that F1 changes its rules on a whim, that is simply not true. They all signed off on the current regs (with the only date specified as 2014) and this cannot be changed now without unanimous approval, and that ain't coming......

Ergo, any changes, up to 32 tokens, can be implemented at any time this coming season. Once you've used them all, you homologate that PU. For 2016 all of them, including Honda, can make any changes they want using up to 20 tokens and so on.

A different debate..... Let the engineers write the regs and this is what we get.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

As noted, the regs are based on calendar dates, not 'entry date'. That they chose to enter a year 'late' is their problem, they're still locked to the number of tokens allowed in 2016....

+1

Personally, as I've said many times, I think they're going to struggle next season. But, they may just get it right.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I don´t think that the "partial unfreezement" for 2015 is such a big problem for Honda. The rest can choose only between racing a half-cooked 2015 engine from the start of the season or racing their 2014 crap till they bring the updates. If Honda gets it right they can be behind the Mercedes, at least till the rest bring their 2015 updates.

 

I don't think that's quite true. I'd guess they'll all appear in Melbourne (probably sooner in testing) having 'spent' most of their tokens. They too were under the (mistaken it seems!) impression they'd have to homologate prior to Melbourne, so have no doubt been working flat out on developments. So they're hardly bringing their '2014 crap'.....

Any remaining tokens can be used on further development during the season, as long as they don't exceed 32 total prior to locking 'Em down for 2016 development with 20 tokens.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I get the feeling that they'll interpret the rules as liberally as possible in the hope of leveling the field.

 

Mercedes set for 50hp engine boost in 2015 : Mercedes set for 50hp engine boost in 2015 - report | News | Motorsport.com

And where are they getting this extra ICE power? Rumor has it that they're burning turbo bearing blow-by oil as fuel, using specially formulated high-octane oils from Petronas.

 

I'm surprised its only 50 HP. I was thinking 100 extra HP with a year of tuning and efficiency gains.

 

These days HP isn't everything. An engine can be more competitive if its efficient enough to operate closer to maximum output longer than the rest.