Is this a bubble?

Hi Hannibal

Do you have any details about the VR you mentioned earlier
that sold for 40k euro?
Please let me know
Paul

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific-sponsored-algar-ferrari/473086-model-suggestions-my-first-ferrari.html

Post #4 thinks it's artificial.

 

Worth a read....

Top five investment classics of 2014 | Classic and Sports Car

Market would seem to remain strong
And the 308 is getting the interest it deserves

Jez

 

http://blog.classiccars.com/teenagers-walls-likely-show-future-hobby/

I had a 308 GTS poster on my bedroom wall as a teenager. Same poster now hangs in my garage above the real deal.


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When early Capris are investments there may be a bubble.

 

A handmade iconic sportscar, a 308 from 40-60 K, from (one of) the most enchanting manufacturer(s) in the world. And double/triple that amount for the most rare, most desired versions (Vetro, dry sump early steel). A car you can actually maintain, get insured and actually DRIVE !! A car that after 10 years will still represent great value. For a price you can hardly buy a new VW Golf/BMW 3 series/Audi A4, (that is in NL), cars that leave you with 150 eur. scrap value.

I think amounts between a milion and 20 milion for 50's/60's/70's cars are much more a "bubble". After some point you are out of arguments like rare/iconic/famous history etc. And who has seen the episode of Topgear in wich James May drove in the 250 California from Cris Evans ? Did you see the looks on their faces ? (sheer terror/fear/anxiety and some relief/joy)

As BigRed already has stated (but correct me if I summorized you wrong !): people have a hard time getting their head/mind around the 308 situation/reality right now. As I did, but I'm learning it/getting there. Getting one's head around the multi million dollar/eur. "250-series scene" is another thing.

So a "308 bubble"? No.

 

I don't think we're in a 308 bubble. Dino 246, yes, but not 308. I keep saying it, because half the owners here dog them, but they made more corvettes in 1967 alone, than they ever did 308s. A base model hard top 1967 327 vette can be seen for $60k in "average condition," (10-15 year old restoration, not really correct, but driveable, and presentable) and no one questions it, but a $60k 308 needs to be perfect; a time capsule or recently restored otherwise, it's a bastard that no one should purchase. I personally believe that $100k for a usable 308 example is not unreasonable, with time capsules, perfect examples and rare variants approaching $250k (possibly upwards depending on the variant). When people are spending more than this on these cars, I will call bubble, in the mean time, I think they're a bargain.

I guess to put things in perspective, when I worked for Nissan last year, a new Altima, optioned halfway worth a damn, was going to run you right at $30k (before TT&L..so probably $32-33 OTD after everything is said and done). That isn't fully loaded, you're still running the i4, and not the v6, but you will have things like heated seats, nav, etc. I just spent $30k on a C6 vette, and I can say, the build quality is 100x better on the Ferrari, the looks are 100x better, and overall it's just a better car (albeit, slower). These 308s aren't $30k cars. Lets stop thinking and arguing that they are...

Besides, if values increase, more owners will find it makes sense to spend $20k on an engine rebuild, or $15k on a paint job. The best thing to happen to the Dinos would be the bubble, as it created a situation where it made financial sense to save the cars, instead of parting them down and scrapping them.

 

it`s like always ...
people who own one, talk prices up -
people who want one, talk prices down

but definitely no 308 bubble here !

prices for one of the most iconic cars of all time were ridiculously low for a decade,
over here in Europe but especially in the US !

what`s happening now, is a long overdue price adjustment ... and it`s not over yet

exactly !
over here in Europe, for those 60K you only get a project that needs work ... if you can find one

6-12 months ago, I predicted a 100K USD price target for a good driver quality 308 with recent service ...
well, in (central)-Europe we are almost there with steel cars beeing offered (and sold) for 85-90K USD -
in the UK they jumped over that limit already ... and believe it or not ... prices in the US will follow suit

another reason for not beeing in a bubble ... offers of good cars have dryed out almost completely in Europe, every car that comes to market is gobbled up pretty quickly
best support ... 308 cars are a limited species now

 

308 prices will supersede Dino prices

 

Sure. Was a red 76 as I recall, repainted most likely as the interior was blue and yellow. Listed by the owner in sienna and stored by the local mechanic that cared for it. I emailed the owner and called the mechanic and was invited to see it any time. Problem... I was in Afghanistan the entire time it was listed. It went away just as I was coming home. I even arranged to have my Italian GF go see it, but I still would have had to buy sight unseen. Logistics from where I was killed it. I was ready to spring over that amount but life is what it is. I will post a pic and VIN later as I don't have them on my mobile currently.

Ciao!

 

Really... ?

 

The UK seems to have different automotive favorites.

I remember my father's '70s Capri being the worst POS car he ever owned. He usually drives his cars forever, but this one barely stayed 2 years. Maybe Ford was better in Europe.

But, the Countach, 308, 911 and first gen M3 seem like solid picks.

 

They certainly could ....... anything is possible.

 

I'd love to see it. But historically the older cars tend to be valued more highly than the newer ones. So, possible...

 

Now that would be a bubble.

-F

 

The older cars are Ferrari V12s (street Ferraris that is) built in much smaller numbers. I think they're in a different league.

 

I think/find the 246 is absolutely a breathtaking beautiful car, but my opinion is you can't really compare it to the 308. Devided over several types some 7000 were made, by no means a mass production, but one can't also call them super rare either. I won't even start the discussion about a 6 cilinder engine..

I am a Ferrari owner/lover, but by no means an "expert". Also I have spent most of my time in starting and building up my business the last 3, 4 years, did not follow the market at all.

Can you guys please explain to me why the 246's are so enormously expensive these days ? What caused them to rise in price so extremely ? Yeah, I know, will have something to do with supply and demand, but I would be interesting in the trigger/cause of it. I can imagine/understand early 308's following the 246 trend, though totally different you could regard them as contemporary. But you can't really say that from 246's and the 250/275 series now, can you ?

 

it is always for the most part supply and demand. in the same context as one wants a trophy wife, it is going to cost to have the arm candy. the 206/246 is no different....trophy mistress.
but the 308's will catch up.....deduct 50% of production for cars that have been raced/destroyed/accidents/parted out......the actual number available are far less than production. that is whey every 246 even if fire gutted is being restored....essentially you are buying the vin number for $100,000, putting $200,000 to restore it, and than either get $400,000 to $500,000 or sit on it for a couple of years till you get that or more.

 

I see two reasons for the Dino's price development:

1. it's got great looks that appeal to a wide audience and is one of the last of a bygone era, which was simpler and more care free (with hindsight). The Dino fits in that class of cars that symbolizes fun and doesn't just attract gear heads. Just like the Mini or the VW Samba bus.

2. it drives nice and has a great sound. It's experience is very classic Ferrari, with the old switches and gated shifter.

This to me are also the reasons why 308s are gaining popularity. They are also beautiful, great to drive and still have that old school Ferrari experience behind the wheel (at least the early ones). They might be a tad out of the Mini, Fiat 500, VW Samba club so may have a less broader appeal, although I've met only admirers on my trips. Every time I fill it up at the gas station, someone will inevitably strike up a conversation or make a nice comment. Women included. So maybe not a car for just gear heads after all?

 

Yes, a 275 GTB or 410 SA is a different category. But, the 246 is priced at about 4x-5x what a great 308 brings (in the US), and it's not an old V12, and not all that rare, so something other than cylinder count seems to be at work.

246s are considered one of the all-time classic Italian sports car designs. They also come from the chrome (headlamp and bumper) era, before federal regs started to affect styling. And -- they are Ferraris. That alone explains why they are valuable.

As to why the surge, I think it has to do with everything prior to the 246 going into the stratosphere, price-wise. If you're shut out of the 330 GTC or other vintage machines, a $300K or $400K Dino 246 feels like a relatively cheap consolation prize. And one you can drive. Remember the bank balance of the vintage Ferrari collector is plenty deep. They're not looking at 360s or Californias - most of the wanted cars are high six or seven figures at this point.

Secondly, and it's almost too obvious to say, but a 246 -- which retains value and seems like a good investment -- isn't such an extravagance for the wealthy Ferrari enthusiast. You could spend the same on a silicon-and-LCD 458, which we know will depreciate and probably become a liability at some point due to aging technology baked into the car. It's probably true that most of the owners of 246s have either made a tidy profit or at least owned it for free.

That's why I think 308s are due to rise a bit. A lot of us look at the succession of Ferraris over the decades and see the 308s as possibly the last chance to get into an Enzo-era, analogue car without selling the house to finance it.

 

Well put Eric.

I'm tired of people calling this rise in prices a "bubble". Mostly I hear sour grapes people calling this a bubble because they missed their chance to buy one.

They're still waiting to buy a 246 for $100k.

 

That makes sense Jon.....
My brother in law has a 246 GTS......side by side looks wise Id take my 308GTB 6 out of 7 days of the week.

 

We may be in the minority, but -- money aside -- I completely agree, and I'd take the 308 7 out of 7 days.

 

1000%....
I was afraid to post that due to the possible flames.

But I see Im not in the minority......at least on the 308/328 board.

probably wouldn't speak up on the 206/246 section

 

And just for you facts and figures guys. Prices are based on desirability due to the way the car's style makes the buyer feel about himself.

It has very little to due with the number made or rarity. I own two front engined v12 Ferrari's that are great drivers, have very low production numbers and are super rare. And nobody wants them.