Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday!

A real basic test ... have you tried while she is running squirting fuel into the not running side's inlet manifold?

Would surely be obvious if that side tried to run for a little while. This may help identify which circuit you need to concentrate on, ie. if nothing happened then it's spark and timing of spark, if something happened it's fuel supply.
Pete

 

I have already checked both spark and fuel. I am most suspicious of "air" actually.

I will of course go back and check all things again. But first want to install new crank sensors, do the recommended "reset" sequence after reconnecting the battery, and then go back to air, fuel, spark.

It is really strange to me that the wiring to the ECUs swaps left to right for the throttle plate and Mass-Air Flow sensors. Not sure why the car is designed this way but it would seem then that the ECUs need to communicate with each other in some fashion then. I've checked the wiring and schematic and this is definitely the case. So, perhaps this stat-up sequence is vital to calibrate the car's ECUs before properly running.

 

Alright. An update. And looking for advice.

I swapped the crank sensors and did the start-up procedure. No change. I also pulled the fuel rail out and checked for good spray. All good. Spark is good. Compression good.

I boroscoped the throttle plate and see that it is opening up.

I got to thinking that this has to be some sort of limp home mode or a communication issue in the electronics of the car.

Here's what's now on my mind...

Could I have a bad camshaft sensor? Or could I have mixed up the connection of the four knock sensors with the camshaft sensor? I don't think I mixed it up as it is in the center of the bracket that holds the five connections but perhaps the sensor is bad and the car is "out of sync"?

Or, do I have a CAN network issue? I decided to swap the new "roof control module" I had purchased with the old old (that had seen some water) as I knew this thing was involved in the CAN network. It may even be the Body Control Module per se. I was told that it did not need to be programmed, but I am now skeptical.

I swapped the old one in and started the car again. My friend was under the car lift and said he could feel combustion out of the RHS of the engine manifolds (yeah) but that they didn't stay warm or get as warm as the driver's side (which has seen more running time since the rebuild).

Perhaps the car manages its banks to different loads under low load or idle? Or perhaps I have a problem that the dealer need to get involved in with the SD3?

Tomorrow I intend to try again. This time with pull the fuses on the O2 Sensor heaters (so any unburned gas doesn't get ingnited) and run the car and give it some more throttle. I may post a video so you can hear it and give me some feedback on whether you think it is running right or not.

Any thoughts? Would a bad camshaft sensor throw a check engine light? I would assume so. It does on other cars but Ferraris are "different"!

;-)

 

Didn't you get both banks running after rebuild #1 but stopped the car after you heard noise that was the bent valve? If so the car is running worse that that now? Or the car never ran after rebuild#1? Does the car run on 1 bank now or will not start? I'm confused on what is the current status.

 

If you have fuel, air, spark, compression on the cylinders it should fire... Are all cylinders on that bank cold? Or, are some firing?

 

I think we all admire you for attempting to fix a very complicated exotic car. But I think the problem is what you said in post #4. Just because in the past you owned Italian designed cars will not help you in this endeavor. My guess is that you will end up taking it to the dealer and they will fix it. I truly hope that it will not cost you more in the end because you took on this project but I suspect it will. Good luck.

 

Oh brother....Your experience of working on other Italian cars is a MASSIVE benefit in trying to fix this one.

There are those of us who believe in your ability to get to the bottom of this problem and build yourself a great Ferrari.

And..there are those that believe, despite the glaring evidence you have demonstrated, that only the "factory-trained" teenagers at dealerships can repair modern Ferraris because they "know computers". This last problem is something simple, I can feel it - elusive, maybe, but nevertheless simple - the complicated parts are all behind you.

Ignore the naysayers who just repeat "my mechanic says..." and persevere - you're so close now.

-Richard

 

I finally sat down to read the entire thread. Great work! You're nearing the finish line, hang in there!

 

At this point, I would want to confirm the fuel pressure on the right rail.

Also, are the rear O2 sensors included in your startup process?

 

This is a great thread, I've been learning a lot. I consider myself technical, and a gear head, but you are working several levels above my expertise on this.

However as an experienced "driver" who has had the occasional gremlins that put the engine into limp mode, or toss strange errors, or have one bank shut down....our tech and race team would be spending hours doing hit-and-miss diagnosing without an SD3 (or, DEIS for the newer cars).

If there is a dealer or independent nearby, I wonder if the SD3 would be able to point you in the right direction? Or at least give you a sense of what sensors or fault codes might be hiding in there.

I once had zero fire on one back, the error code was a TCS problem that we finally tied back to the MAF. Strange how these cars (systems) think.

Good luck and stay at it, you're close!

 

Thanks all for your comments.

Back at it today for a couple hours...

All fuel pressure fine. All throttle plates fine. Appears to be getting spark.

My current plan is to pull the plenum (again). Replace the cam sensor. Check all cam timing (again). And compression (again). Check knock sensor wiring, etc. I want to make sure that if I have to enlist help from Ferrari that I don't end up having to pay them for something I screwed up.

As for ending up further behind than if I had a Ferrari dealer do this from the start, well, no way. I have taken the whole car and whole motor apart and rebuilt it all. Sounds like $80K at the dealer. I've got a dumb mistake to run down or a programming/logic issue (SD3). Either way, I will get it resolved.

 

just to clarify my earlier comment - I don't think a dealer or independent with an SD3 would charge you (much) to download, log codes, capture the readings and clear codes. SD3's are portable so maybe you can find someone to come to you....perhaps an hour of labor or less?

I was not suggesting turning the car over to them

I am not that familiar with the SD3 or the 612 platform compared to the DEIS and 458/F12/FF/458C's, but I would imagine (and an expert can correct me) that it might point to a bad sensor or conflicts.

Keep us posted!

 

No worries, thanks for clarifying.

At this point, I just want to pin-out a few more circuits and triple check some basics. I've got people questioning if I put the cams in the wrong spot, mixed up the knock sensor connectors with the camshaft sensor, etc. etc, screwed up timing, etc.

I am 99% sure I've got a "good motor" now. Well timed, good compression. That being said, I am going to go back and confirm.

I am certain I have good fuel and air induction now. What I need to triple check is spark and that the crank sensors are hooked up properly.

I am wondering what role the exhaust temperature probes (which are not installed into anything right now as I have only the headers on) play.

Also, I've got myself questioning flywheel indexing. I am pretty sure you can't screw that up though if you've got all the bolts back in!

All injectors wiring is in the right spot. As are coils.

I figures out why the wires for the MAF and throttle cross-over from left side to ride and vice versa... its because the air induction comes in from opposite sides! All plumbing...

 

I am starting to think I may have the crank sensor wires reversed. That's one other thing I need to evaluate.

Parts all coming tomorrow and a long weekend next weekend so should get to some more tests.

Thanks for persisting with me!

 

If it has fuel and spark, even at the wrong times you should get the ocassional fire on the problem side ...

Are the plugs getting wet? As surely if you have fuel and that side is not running the plugs would be soaked with fuel by now, so if they are NOT wet you are not getting fuel ... which is why I've suggested squirting some in by hand to see if anything happens.

Even Ferrari cannot make an engine so unnecessarily complicated that fuel and spark will not cause a combustion to occur.
Pete

 

Conventional wisdom is you need spark and fuel but we don't have carbs and point distributors anymore. Verifying spark and fuel are a first step where you still can have a no start condition as you know. If you look at your WSM there is probably a section on "operating principal". That section lists a hierarchy of sensors and conditions for running. It has not changed since the 2.5 motronic and probably same with yours. You need stuff like a strong enough battery to ensure minimum RPM like 30. You need spark and fuel but the primary coordination of those things are crank position sensor. This car was under water. I would do more than just check the sensors at the connection. I would go back a bit to check integrity. Your WSM might also say next key is air flow reading from the MAF but that the car will default to TPS mapping alfa-N. If so the MAF does not need to be there to start. Then the car might look for lesser inputs like temp sensor which helps to regulate the initial open loop fuel load for the air available like a choke in the old days but in reverse. Then other stuff comes in as the car goes to closed loop 02 sensors etc. but those things don't stop a car from starting. That's a typical motronic scheme. Check your WSM and see what it says. Also, the slowdown ECU's don't stop a car unless they register 5v to the motronics or have another internal fault. When they fail they usually throw mil not limp the motor but sometimes it will limp a motor to protect it. But then the car will start when cold unless there is a SDECU fault. look at the WSN and see how your system operates. There is a range the ECU wants to see to keep the motronic's happy. In everything 2003 and backward I have found 1.5V to the SDECU trigger keeps the motronics happy so a simple 1.5V battery can ease your mind and eliminate that system of any effect. You don't have to cam time again with degree wheel. If #1 is at TDC and the 4 assemby marks are very close to lining up the car has the potential to start and that will not stop the car from running. Proper cam timing just maximizes Ferrari's compromises for HP/torque/smog

 

It's running way rich.

If I had the crank sensor wires reversed, wouldn't that screw up the passenger bank more than the driver's? The sensor are attached into the bell housing. Probably an exact 60 degrees apart.

720 degrees divided by 12 cylinders = 60 degrees. Engine runs clockwise from front. Counter clockwise from rear. So when thinking about which crank sensor should go where...

Based on firing order, the passenger side always fires first. Then directly across over to the opposite drivers cylinder. Then after the passenger to driver sequence, it goes to the next set of cylinders pass to driv.

So, there is a left hand side position crank sensor and a right hand side position sensor. The left hand side one would get triggered first based on the engine rotation, then 60 degrees later the right side one gets triggered. So since the right side bank needs to fire first (and there are two identical crank sensors), the left hand side sensor should feed the right hand side ecu. then 60 degrees later the right hand side sensor should feed the left side ECU and bank. As such ensuring the 60 delta between the banks.

If I have them swapped, the drivers bank will fire spark 60 degrees late and the passenger bank 300 degrees late (almost one full turn!). This situation seems plausible at this point.

I need to check wires, colors, pin-outs and sensors and see what the deal is.

 

Is it running way rich but well and just burning your eyes or way rich and sounding like it is off timed as you proposed and funky idle? These cars purr with smooth idle like you could put a glass of wine on the motor and the wine would just ripple.

 

Ok at the risk of going beyond my limits here, when I had a 430C we would often have the exhaust thermocouples go bad....which would result in limp mode or single bank. You mentioned it....so just connecting dots. The routine was loss of power/limp/single bank....pits....SD3....swap a new thermocouple in....clear code...all good. I might be remembering wrong but at this point I want to see your car running. A guru on these engines should know

 

At this point I am going to do some confirmatory checks and then call the dealer and offer to pay $ for help over the phone. If it isn't timing or logic or crank/cam sensors or wiring then the thermocouples could be an issue or perhaps a network or CAN issue.

At this point one starts second guessing everything. Even the stuff I've done a hundred times before. I've got a few more months to pick away but don't want to be spinning my wheels so to speak!

 

Have you considered calling Brian Crall?

 

There's a Ferrari mechanic named Rob Panico who did a fantastic job on my 612 major along with a good bit of other work. He was the best Ferrari of Washington had. He left and I believe turned up at The Collection in FL. Might give him a ring. Might be better suggestions out there, dunno, but I think the world of Rob. Really nice guy.

 

I just called Vince Hill who runs a Ferrari shop in Kansas City. I am going to have him come out to take a look at the car with an SD3. He thinks I may have 1000 codes that need to be reset and sorted through.

Continental Motorsports in Chicago is suggesting that I likely screwed up setting the timing. I guess that is possible but I am hoping that isn't the case.

May get some answers soon.

- Jason

 

I think that was a wise thing to do. Without that SD3 there are so many things you can't diagnose.

 

Meant to add to my first post: I stumbled into the 612 section as I continually entertain the thought of having a four seat Ferrari I can enjoy with my family. What an awesome project! Obviously you've hit a frustrating point now but the work you've done really looks great and you're going to end up with a great 612 once you've got this sorted. Great job and good luck!