Official Countach Value Thread

88 QV white/red 8k miles asking 495$ Marshall Goldman

 

I know of an 89 anniversary with 2000 miles - rosso perlato that can be had for 485k.

 

Here are my revised numbers post-Scottsdale:

LP400 - $800,000 to $1,200,000

LP400S S1 - $550,000 to $750,000

LP400S S2 - $400,000 to $600,000

LP400S S3 - $300,000 to $500,000

LP500S - $300,000 to $500,000

LP500QV FI - $250,000 to $450,000

LP500QV DD - $400,000 to $600,000

ANNIVESARIO - $300,000 to $400,000

As of now, these are the revised numbers I suggest to insurance companies, buyers, sellers, and enthusiasts alike.

How have I arrived at these numbers?

I generally respectfully disregard asking prices, however, I do take actual current sales numbers into consideration, of course. Primarily, I take my own personal everyday trading & sales of these cars into consideration. Therefore, I should say that for me these numbers are not a matter of opinion, they are based entirely on current results. They include sales results which cover all my deals for a significant number of people who pay me not inconsiderable sums of money safe in the knowledge & trust that I am objective & realistic. I don't sell most Countachs that sell, yet still I place more Countachs annually than any single entity, and all my deals have fallen within the ranges I have set forth above.

I should clarify that my comments in this post refer to the COUNTACH market, not any other market.

I should also clarify that my value numbers ascribe to a range of running & driving cars within any particular variant, from project cars to concours cars.

My long-term experience over the past 25 years of buying & selling, plus owning, restoring and specializing in these cars Internationally, comes into play, as I'm often told I have more experience with the market for these cars than most who participate in same. I feel like my experience is one of my most valuable assets in perceiving the market, this latter notion underscored by the number of people (aside from my own clients) who contact me requesting guidance in the market. Having said the aforementioned, it has been interesting to watch how the internet has afforded those who are not operational in the market an opportunity to weigh in on the market. Short term, this can affect the market, but long-term, the law of demand-and-supply and associated checks & balances always rules. The internet allows any proclamation to be made, but it doesn't mean that any proclamation has merit.

Yes, I know my numbers are both conservative and on the low side for some people's thinking or liking. But they are both real & fair IMHO. Rest assured, I am not looking for the market to tank as some are, I don't think it will, and I certainly hope it will not. I think that even with a cooling-down of the market as is now self-evident, values have still done well and will continue to be strong. My purpose is to help those help interested in reality, see what those numbers look like.

My numbers reflect a down-trend since the peak in August 2014, that is plain for anyone to see. Anyone who doesn't see this, just doesn't want to see it, IMHO. I anticipate that this will continue through the spring and into the summer.

My current market review is simple:
As supported by the Scottsdale auctions with increased no-sales and sales below low estimate, plus, the sales numbers of the Miura P400S, the Miura SVJ, the LP500S and the no-sale (& post-auction sale) of the LP400S, my educated & considered view of the market is that it has cooled-off since the peak in August. To underscore this position, you can see a significant number of advertised cars that have remained unsold at their high asks since August.

As a simple example, the bottom line is that an LP400S S1 with TLC required brought a bid of over a million @ Pebble Beach in August, and now @ Scottsdale in January, another LP400S S1 with TLC required only brought a bid of $675k (& post-auction sale of $725k). Those are the indisputable publicly-posted facts. That the trend is downward since August is not an opinion, its a fact.

Surely , a plethora of excuses, explanations and other reasoning will be forthcoming, understandably mostly by Countach owners, but I'm respectfully unfazed by that, and am committed to the notion that nobody who is realistic & objective can deny the fact that the market has cooled from that August peak. My hope is that Countach owners will come around to trust that this is an objective review to the benefit of all. A prudent market is a healthy one and has a better foundation for long-term growth. An erratic one based on greed simply turns many people off. My reputation is that when Im hired, I get the job done efficiently because I bring fair deals to the table, so perhaps this review will be taken in the same spirit.

Lets all note that the car market is supported primarily by the USA & Europe, and Europe is in trouble with a weakening Euro and collectors retreating in droves. The stock market (based on my experience in the equity market for 24 years) is set for a correction, and the world socially & politically is not a pretty place. All the aforementioned are contributing factors to a general slowing-down of the rapid ascent of prices, so the down-trun makes sense.

In final summation I can use the following analogy which some may understand: last August @ Pebble Beach was Everest. This winter @ Scottsdale the teams have descended down to South Col. By April @ Amelia Island I look for them to have descended to Base Camp. At that point we will no longer need oxygen-masks to breathe in the marketplace, but lets be clear, the cars are still on the mountain compared to where they were 2 years ago.

There you have it Sports Fans...

 

Joe - based on what I've seen in the market, I think your numbers are spot on the money and of course why wouldn't they be.

 

Joe,

Care to publish a revised personal opiniated summary of those numbers for "condition 1" cars?

Cars the collectors are NOT wanting to sell, despite the dramatic rise in prices over the last 6-8 years on all classic Lamorghinis.

Hans S

 

My only objection is the DD versus fi ,i have never seen a DD sell higher(in the US ) than the fi sold 467$all inn at RM in scottsdale, unnless traded private. Unknown to me, Highest nmbr officially was the Amelia Island last year in the low mid 300$. I could be wrong here,please feel free to correct me. I also know a FI sold at Palm Beach Lamborghini in the mid/upper 300$s .anyway seems like the REAL realistic prices have pretty much been the same since last spring,on the qv s, Joes list looks fine,i just dont think there have been much of a change if you are using honest real actual sales nmbers the last 8 months or so, on the qv and Anniversary, IOW they have been this low,in lack of a better word,all along.

 

Add the Marshall Goldman red QV FI which sold at $375k in a day or two.

 

There have been multiple DD's that have traded higher than those FI numbers, much higher in fact for a concourse car. Some people believe these are the best overall versions. Power/Drivability/Looks

The FI cars although rare, may not be so sought after in other parts of the world. The euro guys are not likely to come here looking to steal our FI QV's.(correct me if im wrong) But they will gladly take a DD if available here, and vice versa, the USA guys are looking to get the DD QV here now that 25 years is up and the dollar has appreciated vs the Euro. Take out half the broader market of those looking for a QV, and the FI cars just trade lower. Not to mention they have less power, that has something to do with it as well. Thats how I see it anyway.

 

Hans, I think the top end of my price guide covers those cars you describe.

 

Thank you as always, I aim to be objective and help.

 

Multiple dd s higher than 467$ ? Thanks for the info, like i said,corect me if i am wrong.

 

Well done Joe for committing to values for all Countach variants. I reckon you're spot on.

Where do you think the market for Countach is hottest right now? USA, UK, Europe or Far East and how do values vary between these different markets?

 

I believe that car was a flip gone bad (so far) That car has been for sale at Lambo Beverly Hills ever since. I think the last asking was $475K

 

All true, but ditch the US cats, Exaust manifolds and muffler, install true headers and a sport exaust and the car is just as fast as a DD. I also think restoring the body to euro spec helps the FI also. Many opinions on this, but as Valentino told me "It is still a Countach"

 

I really don't think many people are buying these cars based on the power difference between the DD vs the FI. I also don't believe that difference in power is realized without a perfectly tuned carb set up and from what I read in these threads it sounds like those are few and far between. I'll gladly give up a little power edge and take the reliability and lack of maintenance required of the FI. I'm not looking to race anyone with my car, I'm more concerned that it will start when I'm in the mood to take it for a blast and my car has never ever not started on the first turn of the key and I have started it when it's been below freezing. Don't get me wrong, I would love to own a DD also, the sound is like music when they open up. I just don't feel the power difference is a big deal to most buyers.

 

This value decrease for fuel injection is starting to seem more and more like an internet myth.

The myth says that Euro buyers dont want FI, but then there's that blue FI car that went to Europe for a very high price. Maybe there's more?

The myth says that USA guys are dying for a DD, but where are the numbers? Maybe they are just private sales? Where are these imported Euro DDs? I haven't heard of any but I could be wrong.

The numbers are strong for FI QV at auctions, and to me this speaks louder than internet speculation.

Years ago, you could get a FI car for 100K and a DD was 150K. I'm starting to think this disparity is going away, or maybe it's completely gone.

 

A DD has been with us for 18 years now so my fascination with the Super Countach does go WAY BACK BEFORE ANY OF THESE THINGS WERE WORTH A DAMN TO ANYONE. People just thought why would you own that thing? Because, I really liked it as an enthusiast would. Many cars have come and gone but this one stayed and to clarify!!!!!!!!! It will stay in the family as long as feasible.

Internet myth or not, there is something very special about the DD engine setup unique in this world. I knew and understood this fact long ago and I dont care what people say to the contrary. Ask those who work and rebuild them and see what they have to say about it. Inspect the trumpets under the airbox, watch the in-line carb linkage action closely as the throttle goes in, and be absolutely floored at the mechanics of it all. Then listen to the massive gulps of air it takes in and spits out its rear in anger. Its a show of engine p*** that I have never witnessed in anything other than a Miura. After all the years it does the same thing to me.

As always I feel there is something for everybody's taste within the Countach range. Thats the beauty of this model, made for 16 years. Its incredibly diverse. You dont want to mess with carbs get a FI! Still a Countach and will be worth a lot down the road.

 

I personally know of a recent DD sale in the US in the middle of the range that Joe has outlined and the car had needs to be brought back to original. Like it or not the DDs pull a premium and are more difficult to find on the market in the US. I don't personally own a DD, so I have no skin in their pulling a premium.

 

One of the best DD's out there just sold for $600K.

Geno

 

In the US?

 

Interesting, I've been around vintage Lamborghinis for a long time and this is the first I've ever heard of anyone suggesting that a FI car was worth what a DD is or questioning the market difference. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, including Valentino

 

Joe. Thanks for going out on a limb with your view of values.

For the most part I think the range published by Joe is a good guide. As with any range there are cars that may justifiably fall above or below these marks as I think Joe would admit.

I do agree that the upward rise since Monterey did not continue for Scottsdale and you say values flatten and this I'd agree there is a "cooling off" of the upward trend. However at the risk of slightly disagreeing with a guy I respect (or maybe its that I misconstrue the comments) the Market has gone down on Countaches since Scottsdale. The upward trending yes.

The example Joe gives is this:

"As a simple example, the bottom line is that an LP400S S1 with TLC required brought a bid of over a million @ Pebble Beach in August, and now @ Scottsdale in January, another LP400S S1 with TLC required only brought a bid of $675k (& post-auction sale of $725k). Those are the indisputable publicly-posted facts. That the trend is downward since August is not an opinion, its a fact. "

I wouldn't say that everyone would see the two referenced cars as of equal value. One was a capsule car with a few hundred miles (albeit one that needed mechanical work from sitting). This car was not my cup of tea in the sense that I like to drive, but I think for some these "new" cars with virtually no miles are equal in value to a perfectly restored car, or perfectly preserved car with miles. The blue LP400 was not in the same class IMHO as the Copper car or a perfect car (it was restoration value way IMHO). The blue car that had a moderate accident, was far from perfect cosmetically and had the wrong interior. IMHO it was a restoration candidate. So I don't see these values the same. That of course is my opinion. And, while I've voted with my wallet many times in the vintage Lambo market for over a decade, I've done so many times with Joes advice as he is privy to many cars not on the market . I would be surprised if you can buy the best in the world LP400 for $750. And I'd prefer to be wrong because I would love to own an LP400 and LP400S1. Now maybe Joe has a world class perfect LP400 that's for sale at $750 and a perfect LP 400 that can be bought at $1.2. (I would say of anyone has an LP 400S1 at 550k or an LP400 at 800k, I might be interested and they can contact me privately. ) And yet I could be misreading Joes scale as to not capture extreme ends of the spectrum.

On the subject of Scottsdale in general:
I've had several discussions regarding Scottsdale and the opinions are consistent with an acquaintance of mine, who has arguably correctly bet the market with his money better than anyone in the world. The consensus is that auction houses, to appease and attract cars, gave overly optimistic reserves to overly optimistic sellers that expected an upward trend. What we saw was below reserve sales or no sale levels. This may give the impression of a pull back bit what we say was not too much different than Monterey. And Monterey is Monterey, not Scottsdale.

All that said I wouldn't be ready to recommend that Joe publish those numbers as a "Bible," but I agree its a good reference guide. ;(

As for my Bible joke, Joe, does not mean we are not all waiting for you to publish the Countach Bible!

 

Since the entry point of purchasing a DD over an FI car has always been higher, the rate of appreciation seems to be very much the same.

Performance wise, the difference lends itself more to the fact that euro cars weren't strangled with stringent emissions equipment, which not only robs power, but adds weight. Then you have the ungainly U.S. bumpers to deal with as well. Remove all, and find the tables are turned.

 

Thank you for the support Harry.

FWIW I have had a not inconsiderable amount privately!

Values were highest in the USA around August last year, but I think demand is slipping in Europe and the Far East at the moment, this followed by a similar change in the USA.