488 GTB (458 replacement)

why this obsession with wanting to integrate electric motors in v12 supercar. I can understand in a nsx equip small engine V6 turbo, but polluted works of art with some with engines power I do not understand, it must explain to me

 

The electric motor is used to assist in taking the power to the next level, as in the LaFerrari. The V12 which is a variation of the motor from the F12, which itself is a variation of the motor out of the FF and before that the 599 and before that the Enzo, can make huge power. But the higher they make the power, it creates a bit of a less torque rich spot at lower RPMs. Into this low RPM, low power, area comes the electric motor. It has instant torque. So you put your foot into the accelerator, the V12 makes noise, but not so much power, the electric motor makes full power instantly, the RPMs on the V12 rise fast, now the V12 is in its proper operating range, all the while singing its song, and continuing to sing until its very high red line.

Oh I want a LaFerrai.

As to the rest, you guys said it well- big challenges, big changes, we will have to wait and see.

BMW i8S anyone?

 

Great explanation. When I first heard that the 3 super cars were going to be hybrids, my reaction was disappointment. Why complicate matters with dual power technologies that will only add weight and needless complexity without any environmental benefit. I then began researching the benefits of mating an electric motor to a turbo gas engine and became intrigued which was transformed into enlightenment after driving the Tesla. That instant torque supplied by the electric motor was unlike anything I had previously experienced. That was followed by a lengthy test drive of a BMW i8. I am now a confirmed adherent of the hybrid technology for high performance sports cars. So much so that I ordered the i8.
The future for all high level sports cars will definitely be electric motors powering the front wheels with gas turbos driving the rear. Virtually the best of both worlds. Instant torque combined with high power.

 

The i8 marks simply the beginning. 2016 will see the i9 , 550-600 HP, combined electric, turbo gas engines. The Turbo will be based on the twin turbo currently in the 335 with a higher capacity electric motor. Torque will be over 625 ft / lbs. This model will easily compete with anything outside of the 918, P1 or La Ferrari. Projected price, circa $250K.

 

You're comparing washer/dryer parts to Ferrari parts, it's apples and oranges.

FWIW, I've replaced the pump/motor in my dishwasher and it's not difficult and also not too expensive ($85 as opposed to unit cost of $500). I would imagine a v12 engine rebuild on a LaF would be a MUCH more expensive proposition than an electrical motor replacement. It wouldn't even be close.

 

You're right. It probably won't. But I hope that it is not just mid range torque like the MC. I dislike the sense that the car is falling off as it gets up to 8500 RPM.

 

It was obviously not a direct comparison! A metaphor for the fear of centralizing the most important function in a single unit that cannot be repaired itself. But I think you knew that all along!

Just for humor though, a motor is not $85 if a serviceman is doing the work which I'm assuming is who would be doing a V12 rebuild. On an 6 to 8 year old dishwasher they will most certainly say its time to get a new washer. Also, that motor does not live inside the engine bay of a moving vehicle subject the automotive temperatures and shock environment (extreme cold to extreme hot and endless vibration).

And what do you think the cost of a couple hundred horsepower high voltage/torque electronically controlled motor and its labor out of warrantee would be from Ferrari? The best adjective would be "astronomical". Cost = (motor rated RPM) x (#of years old) x (speed of light)

 

It'd be less than rebuilding an 850hp 9000rpm v12.

Point being, if you can afford a LaF,you wouldn't think twice about rebuilding the v12 should it need it, ditto the e motor. A $500 washing machine does not follow similar logic.

 

Was not referring to hypercar Laf but the very next release of the 458M (which will be turbo) and the F12 (which some now have said may be electric hybrid). I was discussing the technology issues associated with both and really making a plea to avoid hybridization of V12 supercar (probably in vein). Since this is just the 458M thread we should stick to that. There is an LaF and F12 forum here so we can pick it up there.

 

I'm back with another idea/theory. Flywheels vs batteries? What's the difference, what's stopping companies from using them in their road cars, and how much would a small flywheel affect a cars performance?

Edit: I did find something on it, here's a small snippet of it and I'm posting a link to it so let me know what you guys think:But there are host of other reasons flywheels might beat out batteries in future hybrids, according to the Eindhoven engineers. Compared to a battery hybrid, the flywheel system has a higher efficiency, no chemical waste, no degradation of lifetime, and costs less because it doesn’t require expensive power electronics. According to Hofman, the simple design of the energy-aware control system saves the driver money because of reduced fuel consumption and its simple maintenance and design.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/advanced-cars/flywheel-hybrid-could-rival-battery-hybrid

 

Flywheels are unpractical for road cars both with regard to packaging and energy storage/discharge. In a race car you don't need a passenger seat and you are on a constant charge/discharge cycle. In a road car there is a different need to harness energy over a period of time. Race cars are also maintained and supported by a whole crew. In a road car, the fewer moving parts, the better.

When using batteries, you can package the cells in a very low CG position, lining them along the bottom of the car. A flywheel is big bulk, and you need to compromise with CG and space, which is not what you want to do with a road car.

There have been several attemps at flywheel powered buses and trams. All have failed.

 

Thanks.

 

Still very quiet. Somebody know whether it will be revealed online before Geneva (end January or begin February maybe?)

 

Factory previews mid February as usual.

 

do you already have the preview date?
peter

 

Agreed.

This is trying to fix something that isn't broken.

 

How is it anything but positive? The V12 still works more or less exactly how it should and the electric motor fills in where the V12 sucks.

Believe it or not, even the best NA engines in the world have rev ranges where they kinda suck.

 

No because I'm not going. My dealer has, although I think he's skipping it too.

 

Why?

Expectations are so low?

 

No, not at all. I'm busy.

 

Actually they tune the v12 for low RPM torque so as to be able to tune it even more for the high end and more hp. They then fill in the low speed torque with the electric.

So there really is a synergy between the two power sources.

 

They tune it neither for low end torque or hp on LaF. They effectively just move the powerband up. They move the mid-range upwards and extend the high-end range. The low end falls off quite dramatically as a result of this. I have posted a graph of LaF vs F12 engine on this forum many times.

Electric motors have 100% torque from 0 rpm so there is no need to accompany the electric motor in any portion of its range.

 

interesting, my dealer does not have the dates yet. i shall go in any case since then i need to decide M458-T or speciale.
p

 

I will be at Geneva anyway, so seeing the car a few weeks before is not really a priority.

 

The present standard production NA V12 has most of its torque available low in the RPM band yet its Ferrari's highest revving of its type (8700RPM). It is the best production NA V12 out there. However, there is more that can be done to further improve the total performance of a vehicle based on this V12 without the need of adding more motors.

As was noted, on the halo LaF they just moved the power up and filled in with an electric motor. This is one of the heaviest, most expensive, and least reliable ways of doing it. Also, electric motors have their highest torque initially but then drop off as a function of RPM.