Official Countach Value Thread

Correct, in the USA, but it was a best-in-the-world type restoration. If we are speaking of the same car, it actually occurred in the fall of last year, and since then things have changed a bit.

 

That's all it was meant to be.

Within that guide for example is this nicely priced Countach which can be purchased without breaking the bank.

A rare 1990 Countach 25th Anniversario, 1 of 4 1990 LLA VIN prefix 25ths in the much-desired "Rosso Perlato" with tan leather interior. The final year of production version of the famed last-of-a-series Countach!

LLA12867 was delivered new to Montreal Lamborghini Concessionaire John Scotti, owned for the past 8 years by and airline pilot enthusiast who sadly just does not have the time to operate it as he is always gone.

Just 8,699 miles from new, serviced by the Lamborghini dealer, original paint, interior and all appointments. A sort of timewarp. Books & tools. Maintenance records. Very fairly priced at $360,000 plus Facilitation.

The point is there are good cars that fit within the range.

By the way anybody who wants this car please contact me directly ASAP.
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I looked at them as equal in the end because one was a time-warp car that needed absolutely everything mechanical, and another was a restored car that needed some revisions. I thought they had a similar value in my eyes.

 

Just for clarification in case you missed it because my post was so long, I made sure I stated: "I should also clarify that my value numbers ascribe to a range of running & driving cars within any particular variant, from project cars to concours cars" http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143669066-post3904.html.

Of course there could be basket case cars in boxes even lower than the low end, and end-of the world restorations or special provenance cars that exceed the high end. But, the vast majority of cars will fit within those ranges IMHO.

 

All in all , very informative and honest,thanks.

 

that's a good deal if its a clean car - car with same specs in black went for 375k a few weeks ago to a local northeast wholesaler

 

What was the Blue FI car that went to Europe for a very high price ?

 

I wish I could remember the details. I know it's on this forum somewhere. It was a low mile car, it was the last or second to last QV, or the last USA QV....or something to that effect. One of those cars where the seller claims it to be historically significant, but it's somewhat debatable. It went for big money, 300K or something, which at the time was as high as any DD or higher. Sorry I dont know more of the details, maybe someone else can chime in.

If you think a DD is a special car I can't argue with that. Some people love one kind of CT over any other. I'm just not sure if the numbers are there anymore to say a DD always goes for way more. Years ago, sure. Now? It's debatable. Take off the USA bumpers and the FI car looks the same. Take off the cats and it's just as fast....I'm just not sure if people are willing to pay a 50% premium for webers anymore. Chad recently sold one and said the buyer did not know or care if the car had carbs.

People who chat on the internet love carbs. People who own a DD love carbs. But real buyers in the market TODAY (not in 2011) with 400K to spend....I am not so sure.

 

I'm sure there are many who don't see the added premium for a carbed Countach. But I've never heard anyone suggest they were unsure if the market on a DD and FI was the same either past or present. Joes analysis reflects the reality that carbed cars simply have forever and continue to hold a premium in the market. To some, like Valentino, (who's drive a few the DD is the ultimate variant and is worth the premium. When I went looking a paid more because that's all I would consider. People who own DD often love them and they vote with thieir wallets. To more people the LP400s low body is the ultimate . I understand this and would like one. Still more in the market think the LP400 is the most desirable and I want one too. But carbed cars are simply worth more. Same with Boxers.
That is in no way to slight the FI cars. They are pretty when you remove the crap put on them and are easier than keeping carbs in tune. I do agree as values get higher, the FI cars values increase when it's worth it to restore them without the bumpers and stuff on them.

 

IOW you have 2 basicly identicl cars(with us bumpers removed) built side by side on the same assembly line.the same guy innstalls the dash,and the doors and the pedals and on and on. They are painted in the same paint boot,the seats are sewn by the same person,the glass is installed by the same person,again and on and on,at the end of the line they are inspected and tested by the same testdriver,finally shipped to the lucky owner.if he lives in America,he gets a beautifull aluminum crossram fuel injection manifold with the Lamborghini emblems casted in to it,and completed with Bosch fuelinjection set up made by THE best company in the world,in this field,by far.not some hick mick concortion rigged by s ome shady caracter in a shead on the port of Baltimor,to gt the epa aproval.(some83/842valve cars) If the customer lives in Germany he gets the engine opped off by 6 beautiful weber carburators,made by The best carburator manufacture in the World, other thnn the last items just described,this two cars re identical twins given birth by the same woman. 25 years go by, the fuel injected car is for sale,2000miles orig paint perfect service records one ovner,and so on,Iow a perfect 10, price 400k (50shy of max acc to the value list) at the same time the carburated car comes up for sale,its got 75000 miles,needs an engine rebuild ,paint is bad,probably needs a complete redone,seats are worn out,terrible service record,transmission screams,Iow a car in need of everything,price 450k(50 over bottom acc to the value list being that it actually runs)
Here comes the 200 000$ question,(the price of restoring+the50already paid in addition)
Wich car would you buy???

 

You Countach guys are spoilt for choice! Just to try and find a 3.0L Urraco or Silhouette good or bad is a herculean task - but maybe that's because they are all DD Webers anyway....

 

The scenario you present is not equal cars which is what I though you were arguing. That a FI car and a carbed one should be the same value. Actually re reading your just questioned how much the premium should be). The reality is most collectors want the carbed car. The factory only did those things to the U.S. cars for emissions purposes. The senario is not equal conditioned cars side by side. And I think very few if any collector would chose the FI with an identical choice. But forced into your senario, for my money I chose spending money on the Carbed DD and perfectly restore it. And I'd do it Every time. I'd do it 12 years ago and today. Actually I did so 12 years ago when you could import one and there were only 16 or so in the country. I searched for 2 years and paid a healthy premium and a few hundred thousand dollars 12 years ago with Gary Bobileff to restore for my collection. Bought another recently and it should Gary Bobileff will be done with a total perfect restoration of it next month. Granted both cars have a special history but both times paid the premium asked for the DD. Yet I alone don't make the market is the market on original carbed cars. To most people who can spend 400-600 or more on a car, they generally want what they want, and if the market reflects the value difference to someone then the money doesn't matter, it's free (or safely invested).

I totally understand someone having the difference of opinion to justify why a FI car is good, but the market is the market. 12 years ago after the Bobileff restoration I spent more than anyone I know of for a CT. I could have bought any countach model I wanted for a museum I was putting together. I preferred what I chose and could make arguments why it was worth more than an LP400. The reality is my opinion alone doesn't make the market. The reality is the market is what the market it. Frankly I wish it was not so. I wish everyone hated what I liked because there are a lot of cars on my list

 

The carbed DD. Every time. Actually did so 12 years ago when you could import one and there were only 16 or so in the country. I searched for 2 years and paid a healthy premium and a few hundred thousand dollars 12 years ago with Gary Bobileff to restore for my collection. Bought another recently and both times paid the premium asked for the DD. Yet I alone don't make the market is the market on original carbed cars. To most people who can spend 400-600 or more on a car, they generally want what they want, and if the market reflects the value difference to someone then the money doesn't matter, it's free (or safely invested).

I totally understand someone having the difference of opinion to justify why a FI car is good, but the market is the market. 12 years ago after the Bobileff restoration I spent more than anyone I know of for a CT. I could have bought any countach model I wanted for a museum I was putting together. I preferred what I chose and could make arguments why it was worth more than an LP400. The reality is my opinion alone doesn't make the market. The reality is the market is what it is and it is so by seasoned collectors for a reason.

 

Would love to own a LP400 and missed an opportunity a while back. I think they are extremely important supercars, but personally would not choose an S over a pure Euro spec DD and thats just me. Personally I want more space to work in, a toppier, more torque filled powerband. I also want more road clearance for those country roads. The Countach is a very short chassis and is super fun at low speed corners but gets awkward at high speeds without a wing. I have now experienced this fact first hand, it becomes a wild bull needing your full attention as it pulls and pulls and pulls. You actually can heal-toe a Countach if your very focused. Driving on back roads would make me nervous in a low to the ground S, but man they look MEANNN. The LP400 has good clearance too with its tall sidewall tires. Back in the day that was basically the conventional thinking. The S was heavier, lower powered, and slower than an LP400, but also harder to live with than a high body car. The QV DD was the best overall and that was that for a period of time. Then the early S1 with 50 models, big carbs and light weight components rightly so became very popular as word got out. Just seems too low to drive in any manner of fun so its off the list. These things are literally slammed to the ground with the correct specs.

Heres the point I see in the Euro QV DD car. In 1985 Ferrari was coming out with the Testarossa and the mighty GTO. Lambo was caught on their heels and needed a major lift to the 5000S Countach to stay competitive. The answer came in the first and ONLY 4V heads connected to DD Weber Carbs on a V12 engine, the most developed V12 carb engine that exists in a street legal car. Really a racing car setup.

Correct me if there are other similar engines that exist but I cant think of any. The power blew people and the car world away all over again. 455hp conservative by some accounts (390HP Testarossa, 400HP GTO, took till 89 for Ferrari power to surpass Lamborghini with the F40). Update the Magneti ignition, put an open exhaust on it and you now have an extremely potent reliable powerplant, you just need to get it up to the top rev range to feel what your truly working with.

The FI was born out of regulations plain and simple. Not so much a factory preference. A similar thing will be done when Lambo needs to hybridize the drivetrains for the new regulations. Its the end of an era. This is a Countach its not supposed to be easy to own. The headaches are a great part of owning the car. When it all clicks its just that much better of a feeling. Anyway, all are Countachs and very special vehicles and theres something for everyone in the bunch, I truly believe it. This is my personal view of the cars.

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I had a fantastic Urraco and Silhouette in my collection at one time. Regret selling those cars terribly. Almost bought one back at 5 times the price I sold it

 

Valentino's opinion on the two cars is also based on driving variants from the factory, which would mean comparing a Euro Version open exhaust DD, to U.S. bumpered, emission equipped F/I. Performance aside, I don't think anyone here is arguing that in the form it left the factory that the U.S car looks better. The argument is after conversion, and after removal of emission equipment the cars are balanced in all areas, with the F/I being a bit less on the finicky side to keep running well.

 

Equal cars would be 600$ DD 450$Fi refering to Joes value list, for the perfect specimen. a150$ Premium for theDD. My example is simply refering to what400/ 450 $ will get you ,a perfect fi,or a crappy DD, Each on their own,i respect all opinions, fact is they are identical cars with the exeption of the induction system,wich imo would have been all fi had the Countach stayed in production a couple or more years.anyway i do admit i love the looks of the Webers,but pretty shure it has to be perfect to outperforme the fi car, i have driven both,my fi is quick ,every time,in fct it always gives me a surprise when i havent driven it for a while.anyway all good,

 

I was referring to his public comments about what he considered the ultimate evolution and his favorite version of the car. He's often stated that many motors tested were much higher than the quoted 455.

As for the variants in general I think it is good that the cars are reaching a level were they are having the ugly us cosmetics fixed. I'm sad that variants I want are so dam expensive.

In any case I am excited that Bobileff is getting ready to finish one for me. Valentino is working on some bits in Italy and it should be finished soon

 

Your wrong on both counts. The Blue Miura FI QV your taking about sold for no where near $300k. It did bring a premium at the time, and for a number of reasons. In my opinion $50k more than the average 88 QV was selling for. Also, it did not go to Europe. It's sitting in my garage.

 

I read a few articles with Valentino,he rferred to the QV as the ultimate Countach,he never compared the us version to the euro version , his point was simply the car finally came alive with the big 4valve engine, he would have praised it equally had it been injected. Anyway i am extremely exited you guys out there spending all the money keeping this awesome car alive.keep it up , post pictures, i will drive my var a few more years ,perhaps do a reconditions when its needed, i will admit,if a dd comes along ,against all odds, a deal i cant refuse, i will grab the opportunity. Again all good

 

sorry about the mix up. Could have sworn some FI car went to Europe for bug money.

So a carbed car is worth about 1/3 more it seems huh? And this is in recent sales, not just internet speculation?

 

Correct.

 

Does this mean a 5000 single valve is worth less than a 5000 QV

 

Surely you mean two-valve...

 

Just checking to see if you were awake Joe