Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

I'd assume it's roughly the 400 pounds difference the manufacturers claim it is. They're legally required to report and disclose the weight of the car. One must assume they're legally required to report and disclose the TRUE weight of the car

However we know Ferrari weights their cars using the lightest version possible. They state that the weight is based on the lightest seats and lightest wheels - both of which are extra-cost options and are not standard on the car. My P1 has several options that increase the weight; a six-point racing harnesses, a slightly larger drivers' seat, alcantara carpets, floor mats and a lacquered center console (not the whole dash, just the center stack that rises from the floor). So I'm certain mine is not the lightest P1 example possible.

 

The weight issue is one reason why a lot of Porsche fans have been looking forward to the non-hybrid sub-918 model (960?). Recent chatter from Porsche sounds more promising but it could still take a few years before we see anything on the street.

 

I've said this before, 918 felt heavy to me when I drove it. Perhaps some of that was because the brakes were crap. I hear they sorted that out, so that's good. But it was after I drove it and made my decision.

 

You just added 1 kg of mass high up in the car and now your handling is ruined, you should have have gotten a Porsche instead.

How is the car mark? You haven't posted any new pics! I bet your too busy driving

 

When I placed my order, I was promised a 'brand new' 'ground up' successor to the F1. At first I bought into their propaganda on the P1, thinking cool, everything is all new. But the more I researched into the car, the more I find out McLaren is lying about the 'ground up' part. Most parts are recycled off the 12C and modified as needed to fit the P1. I don't mind re-using common parts like switches and stuff, but the P1 has way more parts from the 12C. That puts me off greatly. If I never had a 12C, I wouldn't be that much offended by it.

Ferrari never said anything like that, and we all know Ferrari always re-use and re-tune their flagship V12, that's why they get a pass for basically reusing the same engine from Enzo era.

Not literally but figure of speech.

Have you ever asked McLaren why they put the batteries where it is now? What is the response? They had to put it there simply because of the hard points set by the 12C platform. They could have flip the fuel tank position with it since they were modifying the 12C tub to adapt it to P1 usage, but they didn't. Even Ferrari put theirs under the seats close to the ground. Basic engineering knowledge, keeping the heavy stuff as close to the ground as possible. Why do manufacturers use dry sump? Because they can lower the engine an extra few inches to lower the centre of gravity for better handling. As it stands, the P1's batteries are close to a foot higher than the ones in the 918 with respect the the floor pan. That's a BIG handicap to the car's overall centre of gravity.

I did not drive the P1 on a track, I did a spirited drive on the street. Compared to the 918, I can feel the P1 is doing it's hardest to prevent the feeling of weight transfer at the expense of ride quality. The car's body control is imo worse than the 12C because of the stiffer ride.

In the end, I still admire the performance of the P1, there is no doubt it is a fast car, but it's is not what I am looking for, as I know if I buy one, I will be reminded what's underneath the skin every time I walk near it.

If you think the P1 is great now, wait till McLaren do a true ground up car and your mind will be blown away.

 

You have both in your garage right now, why not take them to a scale?

 

When did you place your order? I don't recall seeing any "propaganda" that implied this car was a 100% clean-sheet design. Heck they've said the engine and chassis were derived from the 12C for as long as I've known about the car.

What exactly about this car makes it not the successor to the F1? Are you also claiming the LaFerrari is not the successor to the Enzo?

What parts are you so bothered by? The suspension is newly derived from the best suspension in the supercar business but it has capabilities the 12C suspension didn't have. Brakes - new. Rear wing - new. Body - new. Chassis - newly derived from 12C which is the best chassis in its class by far. Gas engine - newly derived from 12C engine. Electric engine - new. Battery system - new. Dash and interior - new. Seats - new but since offered as options on 650S. Wheels - new. Lights - new but since used on 650S. Steering wheel - new. Shifter paddles - new. Door handles - new. Side-view mirrors - new. Wiper fluid nozzles - new. Glass (all of it on the car) - new. Bumpers - new. Grills - new. I'm sure I'm missing some of the other new parts in the P1.

Oh I see. It isn't about the car so much as about your feeling being hurt by something you think McLaren told you that they apparently didn't tell anyone else that I'm aware of.

Don't you think 400 extra pounds is more of an impediment than this? The P1 feels light and agile and the 918 feels heavy. That's far more important than where they actually placed things around the car. The weight of a driver combined with a full gas tank will outweigh the P1's battery pack (211 pounds) and the battery pack only represents about 6% of the weight of the car. The driver and the gas tank are both mounted very low in the car. You can't put everything at the bottom of the car or the car is going to be 25 feet long. The P1 configuration is just fine. Not putting the batteries under the seats means they can keep the height of the car low.

I'm sorry to hear that. You should have gone to the UK for a proper test drive to experience what the car is really capable of. Did you drive the 918 on track before you bought it?

Strange. I don't notice that at all. The car feels completely effortless around corners. The level of grip it provides is incredible.

I disagree that the body control is worse. In fact I'd say body control is much better because of the stiffer ride and more immediate power delivery. As for the stiffer ride, yes, it has a stiffer ride than the 12C. That seems to be the whole point of the car so if that bothers you it clearly isn't the car for you.

Well you shouldn't buy a car you can't enjoy no matter what the reason and you're clearly hung-up on this. In the mean time you have an incredible car in the 918 and that's awesome.

BTW, this would be a fun argument to have at a bar over some drinks!

 

I'm way too busy driving it. It's just so much fun to drive!

 

I am so going to open a bottle of Macallen 25 years to drink with you

 

They'll likely wait until the dealers have moved their cars before they make any big announcements on a sub-car.

 

Interesting observation about CG. I got to drive 003 during our last test session. It's CG is VERY low. Because of the downforce it generates we're also able to run the rear wing below the height limit which lowers drag as we need a lot of VMAX and have enough total downforce and mechanical grip without having to raise the wing to the max. We're not allowed DRS It feels totally different from anything I've ever driven before. None of the drivers could determine it's limits or what happens when it lets go as so far it doesn't let go. We're going to take her to Paul Richard next where we can safely find her limits. Do you know how much mechanical grip and downforce any of these three have?

Cheers
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To answer the question the p1 fuel tank remains where it is because its the strongest and safest point to mount it, where it was designed. Not everything needs to be changed just for the sake of adding 'bespoke' to its name.

P1 has amazing handling, 2Gs lateral load, way overkill for street use. Theres more understeer in an f12 or 458 speciale and nobody complains about that. P1 feels like a 900HP go-kart. Its dynamic sway bars as a result of its hydraulic suspension allow it maintain very neautral handling under extreme conditions.

Lower COG is great but not at the expense of excessive weight. Weight is harder on tires, brakes, response and simply less fun. its the kryptonite of sports cars.

These are street cars not race cars. A properly setup race car will beat all 3 for a fraction of the cost. For street use its just a non issue.

 

Odd that you defend the P1 claiming that it has no issues with understeer when no one had mentioned it in this thread recently. However, in H2Hs with the 918 & the LaFerrari, seperate publications had reported just that as a handling trait of the P1 when on P Zero Corsa tires. JB on the Evo test reported that the P1 understeered at Anglesey "on every corner" with Corsa tires (before the 2nd test with TrofeoRs) and in the H2H with the Laferrari (also on P Zero Corsas), CAR magazine reported "excessive understeer" against the P1. Interesting that Sportauto, commented that the 12C & the 650S had understeered in their tests, while the P1 did not understeer but it had been delivered with the optional TrofeoR tires. To add to that, Autocar in their recent Best Driver's car year end test relegated the 650S to 5th overall due to "too much understeer". It strikes me that McLarens "understeer" notably on P Zero Corsas, their standard tire, be that the P1 or 650S.

 

Don't agree with that.

On the street thru the low speed turns one encounters mechanical grip is much more important than downforce which generally starts to really work at speeds far above legal speed limits.

2 G's of mechanical grip, (Has McLaren stated that number? Have Porsche and or Ferrari stated a number?) is very good for a street car.

 

Funny.

Everything he said was virtually untrue based off the recent testing (as you were pointing out).

-Evo, felt the P1's handling was unbalanced in comparison to the 918's.

-P1's tires were the ones that were changed do to potential wear. 918 kept theirs throughout it's testing. Obviously, Regen Braking (which P1 lacks) helps in this.

-Reviewers felt turbo lag in comparison (albeit, driving them back to back).

-Evo, felt 918 was a more predictable, precision instrument regarding handling. This was echoed by the likes of Randy Pobst at Luguna Seca (though McLaren declined to send a car).

-918 had better times, till Trofeo's were brought out, etc.

-"2G" is McLaren's claim. No one has independently tested this (though TOG Gear claimed to get over 2G in one corner, if I remember correctly; though the 918 had performed better overall with most of the data TG released)

-We know the P1 weighs over 1550+ Kilos, though every British Mag appears afraid to weigh it.

-918 actually has the lowest COG (it's at the wheel hubs), and one of the reasons why, is the battery packaging as Whoopsy mentioned.

A bit presumptuous overall in his explanation.

Hey Jim. Both Porsche and McLaren claims they can get 2g lateral cornering force on these two vehicles. So far on the skid pad, no tester has come close.

 

Road and Track will be testing our car for their May MotorSports issue out in April. We will of course have telemetry when they drive the car. At Geneva we will release some data...

 

Great!

Can't wait Jim!!

PS: "2G's" cornering, is something Porsche discussed in passing with media (mentioned in conversation; not part of their official press release or PR campaign), unlike some of the larger and more repeated cornering boast with McLaren. FWIW

 

918 wil likely have the most mechanical grip among the 3, widest tires all around plus the lowest centre of gravity. Not even talking about how the 4ws can micro manage the tire slippage.

I am inclined to believe the P1 will have the highest aero grip at high speed but the lowest mechanical grip among the 3, the LaFerrari will slot right in the middle.

003 looks to me will beat all 3 on both mechanical and aero grip, you probably know that already from your own testing and see the numbers.

Even with aero grip, I think it would be hard pressed for the P1 to sustain 2G, maybe peak spikes at 2G but that's about it. Your 003 however likely can do it.

 

The Laferrari has wider rear tyres than the 918, same size fronts. The 918 does come with a stickier tyre as standard. I'm sure Ferrari would challenge the idea that the 918 has the lowest CoG, given the Laferrari's packaging.

The P1 on Corsa's generated 2.15g at Castelloli compared with 1.87g for the 918, would have been higher still with Trofeo's.

 

The Stig got 2.15g from the P1 so if anything McLaren have over delivered on that particular claim. The 918 did better on most of the other tests (we should get to see the actual laptimes soon) but we have to bear in mind that it was on better tyres. It is a shame that we'll probably never get a fair comparison with both cars on the same rubber.

Two P1 owners have weighed their cars fully loaded with fuel and published the results on MLife. Both were pretty heavily specced by the looks of things and the weights were 1539kg and 1547kg. I suspect there must be a few lighter spec cars weighing in at around the 1500kg mark. Do you know of any customer 918's that have been weighed?

 

345 vs 325, but the 918 has a larger diameter, about .5", the contact patch size will be close, LaFerrari will be a bit wider and the 918 will be a bit longer. Close enough but the 918 will have more pressure pressing on the ground due to the higher weight even with the LaFerrari having more weight, 59% vs 57% over the rear axles.

A V8 naturally has less weight on top, i.e. cylinder heads and stuff, than a V12, LaFerrari also has a smaller and lighter battery pack, so no matter the packaging the 918 will have a lower CG than the LaFerrari.

The 2.15g is peak, not sustained and measured on a high speed corner with aero grip. We are talking about low speed mechanical grip.

Anyway, you should have quoted the factory claim of 3.9g at the Karussell, that sounds more impressive. Almost as sensational as the 5g claim by a certain someone.

 

Here goes C&D's koenigsegg one:1 review
2015 Koenigsegg One:1 First Drive ? Review ? Car and Driver

 

I did not know about the 3.9g figure. Thanks for bringing it up.

Ridiculous claim, deserves to go alongside
"6 seconds faster than a GT3 car at Catalunya",
"6.3x at the ring"
"the only thing that comes close (to the throttle response) is an F1 car"
in the long list of BS about the P1 put about by McLaren and some of their acolytes.

BTW, have you, or any of your fellow 918 owners that you know of, weighed your cars yet? Cheers.

 

Oh, I believe that it the weight of the P1.

I remember, when Pagani allegedly had weighed it with driver at 1575 kilos.

No, what I find amusing is; the various British Press (some "Acolytes" as you call them), have taken this car to the track in the past,and timed them; presumably spent all the day with them, etc.. But none of them have actually officially stated they weighed the car, though there always quick to tell us what McLaren said it's dry weight is. That's all I was really saying/pointing out.

It's kinda like when, Evo initially said they didn't time the 918 and P1, then Harry Metclafe tweeted they actually did. Common sense would say, "why not". And I'm assuming they must have weighed the cars as well, but are seemingly reticent about reporting it for what ever reason.

Speaking about weight: Not sure how many 918 owners have weighed their cars, but certainly Sports Auto got Porsche's weight of 1640+ kilos on the Weissach car, and over 1700+ kilos on the standard car with some other magazines.

It appears right now, they're too happy enjoying their cars to weigh them (shrugs). LOL