The real reason behind turbos in the 488 GTB

It seems like a lot of journalists and even F-chatters believe that Ferrari was forced by emissions standards/EU regulations etc. to implement turbos in the new 488 GTB.


While this might be entirely true (that´s what I want to find out) we shouldn´t jump to conclusions or take everything we read for granted.

Hoping some of you might have a deeper knowledge about this so that we can agree on the reason for changes in what is becoming the future of Ferrari engines and a big topic here on Fchat the next years (maybe even in decades).

So I´m going to spark of this conversation with one question :

If Lamborghini is "allowed" to use a V10 in their Huracàn as a result of VAG sales, why did Ferrari "have to" implement turbos in their smaller V8 when they sell tons of cars under the Fiat umbrella (or even Fiat Chrysler Automobiles for that matter)

Even Yamaha is developing the N/A V8 Toyota engines for the new Lexus RC F. Although I don´t know if there are different rules for producing cars in Japan or even in the US. But these cars are exported all over the world.

So did Ferrari really have to, or was this a choice made for other reasons?

Bear in mind that I don´t want this thread to be about pros/cons/sound/exhaust note or about N/A vs turbo. That is already being discussed in hundreds of other threads these days

 

Ferrari is no longer part of Fiat-Chrysler.

 

Still is; not spun off yet. Even still FCA will own most of Ferrari. Only ~30% of the company will be for sale to new shareholders.

 

Also its yet to be determined what Lamborghini is going to do. If governments are going to fine and tax car companies for emission standards or lack there of Lamborghini is going to down size their engines or they may go the route of V10 NA with an electric engine.

They won't continue going forward with NA engines, they simply don't sell enough cars and Lambo isn't that profitable to say the heck with stiff fines and tax levies.

 

With the introduction 458 Speciale, the V8 Naturally Aspirated engine has peaked performance. Direct Injection with 14:1 compression pistons running on pump gas.... IT DOESN'T get any better than this. IT CAN'T. Yes, you can go with a bigger displacement engine making slightly more power, but you are also adding more weight and adding weight vertically, which effects the balance of the car during cornering. The 458 Engine is big enough.

Another member referred to this as a period of "diminishing performance." Ferrari knows this, so they are changing the game plan. They are setting us up for a new Era.

Ferrari has always wanted to produce a car that weighed 1000 kgs (2200 lbs) because they feel that is the "magic number." That's what the "Mille Chili" (1000kgs in Italian) project was all about. There is a division dedicated to researching new space-age materials/engineering aimed at helping Ferrari build cars that are gradually closer to Mille Chili.

Sales -- Automotive News

"Ferrari knew that whatever replaced the Enzo had to be lighter. The first step toward this goal was a research model unveiled in 2007 called the Millechili (Italian for 1000kg). Ferrari developed the car to test ways to shave 265kg from the 1365kg Enzo.

To do this, Ferrari decided it had to:

• Make LaFerrari about 900mm shorter than the Enzo's 4702mm and

• Downsize the engine to a 3.0-liter twin-turbo, gasoline direct injection V-8 with 550hp from the Enzo's massive 6.0-liter V-12 engine."


The ONLY way to reach Mille Chili is through smaller engines powered by turbo chargers for significant weight reduction, while maintaining power. They put a 3.9 L in the 488. They were going to put a 3.0 L in LaFerrari!

Today's Ferrari's make great power and great sound, but they are still porkers at 3,000 lbs+. Ferrari wants to take us in a new direction and the first step towards that goal is to get us used to the idea of a Turbo'd Ferrari. The advances in performance will be more focused on significant weight reduction and aerodynamic efficiency.

 

It's all about time and money, as usual. If they wanted to stick with NA, they'd develop the rest of the car to accommodate it. Hybrid, CF, new platform, less this, more that, etc.

That takes time and money, neither of which they are interested in spending. They want big power, lower taxes, lower costs, and they want them sooner rather than later.

Hence the new turbo engines.

 

The 488 GTB is all of 22 lb lighter dry weight than the 458. I don;t know about you but that does not strike me as a whole lot of weight savings for a 13% smaller displacement engine.

 

You're absolutely right. It's not a big weight difference. To me, a turbo'd 458 (488) was unnecessary. That's why I feel it is more about adjusting new buyers to the concept of Turbo. Lowering displacement little by little. You can't shock the public too much.

660 hp is only necessary if the car is relatively heavy. You don't need to have 660hp in a 2200lb car, which is why I believe motors will be smaller in displacement in the future. Smaller displacement will also aid in sound enhancement. Ex. 3.0 L Twin Turbo. You should see more than 22lb weight savings there. to achieve Mille Chili, every lb matters and it won't be done with a 3.9L either.

 

""MILLE CHILI" LABORATORY INAUGURATED WITH FERRARI CONTRIBUTION AT ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT AT UNIVERSITY OF MODENA AND REGGIO EMILIA
Maranello, 17th February 2009 – Related to the research and development projects of new models, weight reduction has always been a major goal for Ferrari, which also leads to less fuel consumption and reduced emissions. Numerous technological innovations in this direction have been incorporated in Ferrari models over past years. A project called "MilleChili" was presented recently. The target of this project was the overall weight of the car (mille chili = 1,000 kg), a stimulus for the development of engineering solutions which take advantage of light weight."

 

The real reason is the ability to platform share the engine thereby reducing costs. This is a trend going on across all automotive firms including Porsche. This 3.8 turbo and its variants will be in multiple cars. Ferrari said their goal was to increase profit margins going forward and this is one of the ways it's being done, the other is more tailor made cars where overpriced materials are sold. There are less and less skilled individuals available so costs for specific component manufacturing is increasing, forcing manufacturers to cut corners or make compromises.

 

Can't agree more . Turbo is a cost effective way to boost power . but I like Naturally Aspirated engine . I wish the next 488 speciale would be a 5.5 l. naturally aspirated engine !

 

This. If Ford can develop and build a new naturally aspirated V8 with a flat plane crank that spins to 8,200 RPM and makes over 500 HP to put into the new GT350, surely Ferrari can keep making N/A engines if they really wanted to.

 

I am starting to agree with the above - time and cost. It seems like no one is being forced after all.

What really disappoints me is how the media is feeding the public with incomplete info. And what is even worse is that it is reflected in a LOT of comments on F-chat already. It is counter productive for F-chat.

You know when politicians want to make a new controversial law, how they try to lobby and give as little information as possible?

Look at these examples.. If you want others : just Google 488 GTB.. To save time just google "488 GTB emissions" etc. I found these in 20-30 seconds.

Ferrari 488 GTB storms into the new turbo era

"It's no secret that Ferrari engineers are hardly thrilled about making the move to an all turbo (or hybrid) lineup, but the regulatory environment has forced their hand."

Forced?

Even worse is this one, an "anonymous" Ferrari executive...*cough*....... :

Why Ferrari engineers don't like turbos

"The fact is, every car company is being forced into forced induction, for the exact reasons our Italian friend gave"

Forced?

New Ferrari 488 GTB Turbo, 0 to 60 in 3 seconds.

"New emissions requirements and regulations around the world have led Ferrari to reinvent the turbo engine."

Etc.....

Also I wonder if it was really necessary to bring down the cost.

Would it really matter to a potential 488 GTB client if the price was 250K USD or 280K USD?
Like all other base model Ferraris, there will most likely be a waiting list for them...

 

Why should we care if Ferrari is forced to go with Turbo or not. There is no point to speculate "why". It's here anyway we either take it or leave it

 

I care, and that is why I ask.
A lot of people care, as you can see.

If you don´t, move on... nothing to see here. Internet 101

 

Honestly, NA engines are a dying breed, everybody (from cheap city cars to Formula 1) is changing to Turbo so sooner or later this was going to happen. And even if current regulations don´t force small volume manufacturers like Ferrari to turbocharge, most probably they will in a not too distant future.

So turbocharging the V8s was the most obvious decision, but my question is: what´s going to happen with the good ole V12s? Will be Turbo too or just will die?

 

Really? you think you are gonna find an answer here by speculating and guessing? Maybe a Ferrari top manager can answer your question if he/she desires. You are just wasting time and bandwidth. Internet 201

 

You're all wrong. It's because they got their ass handed to them by McLaren on the raw numbers. That is something that, above all, Ferrari find hardest to live with.

 

Yes, I really hope to find out. You never know what kind of professionals (law, auto, manufacturing etc.) are posting here every day who could chime in on this, and that is why I ask on F-chat.

This is the perfect place to ask if I have an F-car related question.

For the sake of future discussions it should also be out there. Who wants to be part of a discussion where the facts are flawed?

Again, if you are not interested I don´t understand why you keep coming back to this thread.

Have a nice day, and best regards.

 

There is still a huge fiduciary duty and relationship.

 

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I think they are a little forced by the market, see macca with the 650S 3.8L turbo engine, there are a lot of people who want to buy the most powerfull car so the 458 replacement should have more then 650 HP. I really think to achieve that with the 458 engine there should be turbo or kers addition. I don't care about being it a turbo or not or being a hybride or not.


I remember a lot of people complaining about the Hybrid hypercars because it was hybrid blablablablabla. And I think everybody loves the LaFerrari and the way the hybrid part works.

I'm very confident that the ferrari 488 will not have negative performance issues because of the turbo's like turbo-lag.

I'm only afraid for the sound but that is also discussed.

360 CS > 430 scud > 458 speciale (sound wise)


The reason I love ferrari is the sound it was the reason I felt in love with F1 in the old days.

 

Because they are telling their customers that they were forced to put a turbo engine in the 458 replacement because of emissions regulations when that is simply not true. If Chevy and Ford can design and build new N/A V8's that meet all the emissions regulations and make good power, surely Ferrari can keep building N/A engines. The reality APPEARS to be that they are taking advantage of the regulations to save money by sharing a similar engine among multiple platforms. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, but some customers might not like finding out that their $300K sports car has the same engine as a less prestigious model) Turbos allow them to easily adjust power output so they may appear to be different engines, but are fundamentally the same.

 

Simple answer

Turbo's the quickest and easiest way to add HP -- anytime they want. Ask McLaren.

 

True, but they also tend to supercharge their highest HP models. Ferrari claimed some time ago that SC was not efficient, so they would look for alternative ways to make hp.