What does the 488 mean for the F12M

IMHO, it is very unlikely there will be an F12 GTO, at least not until there is some indication of an F12XX programme. However, we know that the car will need a refresher in 2016 and so assume it will be a Modificato of some sort. Also the 599 GTO was a limited edition car whereas Ferrari obviously need their premier V12 to be a normal production car until possibly the replacement draws near when space for a GTO is a possibility.

Given that the performance of the new 488 is now not materially differnt from the F12, what will Ferrari have to do or might do so as to keep performance distance between their top of the range V12 and the more common 488, as clearly an HGTE or handling pack is no longer going to be enough? And when?

 

I know you really know what you're talking about but I don't think I can really agree that the 488 is now not materially different from the F12.... I know you're talking power and torque- the 488 I think has more torque- no? But one is a mid rear engine super sports car and the other is a mid front engine super GT. I think they have different missions and I can guarantee you the F12 sound will be leagues ahead of the 488- as I have always found the V12s sound so much better than the V8s.

I agree it seems the 599 didn't really have a long life- it debuted in 2006- and final year was 2011? So thats 5 years and in that time they had the run out special in the GTO.

It seems the F12 will have a longer life time going from original model (2012) to M model akin to the HGTE probably for 2016? And then probably another 3-4 years we will get the special end of the cycle limited model. I will guess around 2018/19. My guess for the F12M is they will bump HP to 750- that still 90hp more and some more torque too, maybe an F12 version of their SSC for more fun - of course some styling refinements- maybe a few new shapes on the interior dashboard etc. Perhaps the eventual "GTO" model might include some sort of electric power boost. At some point that will make it to the V12 models and I can see the true F12 follow on model adopting it.

 

I did not make myself clear. The two cars ARE materially different, it is just the traditional gap in performance between the V8 and V12 will no longer exist.

 

I agree that they will most likely look to do something.

The V12 is the top of the range and normally the fastest car in terms of their normal production when taking straight line performance. I would be willing to bet the 488 will be faster than the F12 right out of the box similar to how the 650s is already faster than the F12.

Just my opinion but I think the next change to the F12 would address this.

 

The F12 is already at the top end of what 2wd can effectively put down to the ground on the street. Even I as an owner would call it like Clarkson did, just about too much power.

Ferrari needs to adapt the FF's awe system to the F12 in order to advance it meaningfully power-wise.

 

Is it? What about the La Ferrari? I agree an evolution of the FF system might however be more appropriate, but that will surely be for the successor not the mid life upgrade?

 

The most conservative modification would feature a handling package (with for example Sport Cup tires), some lowering, and a more robust exhaust. Like the 599 HGTE, it will be nothing you couldn't do yourself. Then with wider wheels and Cup tires, a tweak for more hp would also get the power down.

 

I think it could handle more but I guess my opinion of too much power for the street is skewed as there are very few occasions where I drive any of my cars that I'm not over 300kmh

 

There will be an F12 GTO version.

Nokia 730 & Tapatalk

 

Very possibly as a run out limited edition but not as a mainstream production model so my question still remains.

 

My view....

The F12M will be an evolution (550->575). More power, more drivability (software, SSC 3.0, more active/passive aero). Will continue to be NA, low(er) production volumes. Hard for me to see them really doing a full-on 360->430 evolution given the regulatory climate and economics. Likely an HGTE package, and definitely a "GTO-esque" evolution. BTW the F12 makes for a great platform for SP cars, to the extent the market demand is there.

Meanwhile, the FF will derive into an FF-M (evolved, some cosmetic tweaks, perhaps aero) but with the same 2+2 chassis. They will also offer an FF-based coupe - with the 4RM, based on the FF tub (to keep re-certification costs low). "Coupe" could equal Cali rear seats (i.e. not a real 2+2).

Ultimately, they are going to mainstream some form of the HY-KERS into the V12 and V8 platforms; turbocharging is easier as a first step, "hybrid" is easy until you want it in a performance car, then you are talking P1/918/LaF complexity and cost. Unsure if they are ready/able to get far enough down the development and cost curves within the next few years.

Big question will be what form (if any) the V-12 takes in 5-6 years, as displacement can't get much bigger, so perhaps a 4.0l V-12 with advanced forced induction with some hybrid drive will be production-ready (i.e. LaF). The FXX-K might prove to be a good source of funded usage and R&D, as I'm unsure how much mileage road-going LaF's are going to accrue.

 

I think you are on the key questions for the future V12s:
Will we get one more iteration of the big NA V12s?
Will we see a smaller forced induction V12 before going to hybrid?
Will we ever go to a V12 hybrid at anything like the current cost of the F12?

To some extent the answers may depend on how much government bureaucrat credit the company gets for the TT V8s. Given that they make up most Fcar production they should impact fleet emissions performance considerably. That may keep the government wolves away for awhile but ultimately they will win.

 

I do not think we will see a turbo V12. One of the people from Ferrari said in an interview- sorry I cannot remember- that to get the results they want for the V12, they would need 4 turbo chargers and the weight penalty from the cooling would be too much.

I do think we will see some form of electric assist at some point. My guess is none of the F12 models except maybe the eventual "GTO" model.

Do you really think we will see a 2 seater version of the FF?
It seems like one model too many to me.

As to RWD and power. The LaFerrari has greater rear weight distribution but less actual weight than the F12. I think tire and suspension technologies are improving all the time so I think there could be more power. Also Ferrari could tailor the power delivery similar to what they are doing with the turbo cars: not all power all the time.

 

Was the performance gap ever huge between v8 and v12? I don't think so. Not since the 512 TR and 348. Everything after was close.

I think we will see an updated F12 either by a package or by a mild facelift and finally some special edition. Maybe a GTO type or an aperta type. Or both.

 

From my point of view, the LaLa, the P1, the 918 are not the normal daily drivers. Some owners drive them daily, I also drive my 918 quite a bit, but in reality the F12 is more the daily driver kind of car. There are winter tires available for my F12 and FF, but none for my 918 so I can't even drive it to my Whistler home. I doubt there are winters for the P1 or the Lala either.


I am guessing the front clip of the FF and the F12 is not that much different, there might already be enough room inside the F12 compartment for the FF's front drive train already.

Ferrari always do their own thing, they never really quite follows what's accepted as the norm for product cycles, if they feel like it they will do it. They have a new man at the top, I would not be surprise if he changes direction and not follow what his predecessor did for the longest time.

On less than perfectly dry tarmac condition, the F12 already has enough power to break traction in most gears. I certainly can't really find anywhere in the rev range where I think more power is needed. Maybe our German friends who frequent the autobahn would like an extra 50HP at the top end for them to gain another 5mph or whatever top speed.

The F12 can certainly benefit from a tightening up of the body control department, i.e. 'handling package' also.

Outside of some nitpicks, I am supremely satisfied with the F12, actually I enjoy it more than my 918 on quite a few occasions.

 

The weight issue is interesting. We have been told that one of the benefits of TT is the weight savings realized from a much smaller engine, even though hp is higher. But when you factor in the weight of the turbos, intercoolers, and piping, it is not obvious that there is much of an advantage. Consider that the dry weight difference between the 488 and 458 is a mere 22 lb.

 

I also doubt it. Or even a 2+2. It would seem to make more sense to mount the 4WD system in an F12 or its successor to be able to put more power down.

 

The smaller engine part comes from downsizing from a V8, V6 to a V6 I4. That's the part that can save engine mass.

458 and 488 both are still V8s, so the basic metal amount is not much different even when going with a smaller sized engine.

 

Right. I don't know which law of physics or thermodynamics this is but basically its a simple truth we all know: there's no free lunch.

Whoopsy- can you draw a comparison with the F12 to the 599? I'm told by a few friends who have had both that the F12 "murders" the 599. I would expect the improvement but that is huge praise from these guys.

I agree that it might make sense to drop the 4RM system or something similar into the F12. Lets face it, the F12 as it is weighs what? 3,700-3,800lbs? Its not exactly a light weight and the AWD would make it more exploitable for more people more of the time. I'm a RWD fan, and a stick fan, but you have to be willing to look at other ways.

 

Aero could be significantly altered through more aggressive aero bridge, diffusers etc.

Electronics could be fiddled with to make the car quicker.

A little less weight, wider wheels, more aggressive rubber and more power (electric unit?) would certainly help the f12 stay ahead. Every area is open to improvement.

 

As a V8 owner, I lament the transition to turbo's in the mid engined cars coming down the pike. As such, if I ever decide to change or add to my Speciale, the next F car for me will likely be a V12.

I hope they keep the V12's normally aspirated; I agree that the current level of power is more than enough, just give it a chassis that can use it better and reduce the weight, if possible. Current F12's have a curb wt in the 4000 lb range (not the 3560 lb's in the factory spec), lower that by 10% and the performance improvement will be substantial!

In any event, the F12 has a much different "character" than the 458 or upcoming 488 - so even with similar performance they are much different cars...

 

Good points. I believe ferrari have already stated that V12 cars will remain naturally aspirated however with KERS or ERS because turbo V12 would need four turbos and be too heavy. The V8's will be turbos. When you say give the V12's a better chassis that makes me wonder if they would abandon front/mid V12 placement and go back to a rear/mid V12 layout and price it at 500k or something...?

 

Nothing wrong in keeping the V12 - it makes all the right music after all. As engine tech gets ever more advanced, it will be interesting to see what happens to engine size - I wonder how much smaller the engine can be whilst producing outrageous power figures when combined with ERS? Clearly a rush for more raw power is a bit pointless, but the rush for more power to weight is great.

 

F12 already is perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHAZlcP2vA

 

Given where these pressures are coming from, isn't the logical progression of the V12 GT towards the La Ferrari model? We know they've hinted that electrical motors are going to be part of the equation, and they've been pretty clear about where emissions regulations are pushing them. Maybe the F12 successor reduces the V12's size/output relative to the current one and marries it with an electrical motor to achieve a somewhat higher overall power output, all this combined with a more radical weight reduction strategy and other electronic fuel efficiency efforts. I suspect this pushes pricing to around the range you're talking about, though, if not higher.

The problem is that all of this involves squaring the circle -- making changes to comply with efficiency mandates and convincing the consumer that there's enough performance improvement in the bargain to justify the greater expense.

Or maybe they just need to spin off the F12/FF into their own separate company!