Is this a bubble?

Absolutly it has to do with current market prices, if they get near this price your car probably just went up in value to some degree.

 

Yes and I really wish it sells for that money. It will then make my car be the best investment I ever made in my life ;-)

With what have happened with the 246 market since a couple years anything is possible.
And I must admit this black car is a good candidate. But I still think it is optimistic.

 

The last car I was supervising the restoration was a 1969 428 super cobra jet 4 speed Mach1. When I told the painter at the shop that he had to spray a very thick coat of primer Under the car to make sure there was a lot of dripping Under the floorpan he said '' it's the first time in my life as a painter I'm asked to make drips on purpose''

 

I think you are mistaken about Newman, he takes pictures of the mistakes the factory makes so he can reproduce them if wanted.

 

Well said. I totally agree with your assessment.

 

When Dino prices rose a lot of Dino's came up for sale producing a surplus supply on the market. Everything is always a function of supply and demand including gasoline prices.
As the 308 prices shoot up they will eventually plateau since a lot of people will decide to sell their cars as the price threshold increases.

 

Yes I know what Paul is doing Todd, this is the way to do it. I did it myself, if you read my entire post about parts and all the assembly you'll understand what I mean.

 

Good I didn't step on your toes
I understand your point but when advertizing a car like this with this price I think he was expecting it to happen.
Sometimes it's good to crap and spewed, take a look at this http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/477085-will-512tr-front-bumper-fit-testarossa.html

 

Just to give some comparison on the rising market. The Alfa Romeo Giulia SS that I used to own and is now owned by a good friend was barely worth £ 20,000 ten years ago. Hagerty now have condition 1 cars at £ 140,000 and rising. I think the rise in value of 308's is very small in comparison and they could have a long way to go before it's even close to a bubble.

 

I was the person who initially said the $300k+ car was over restored and it is. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but as stated above, the car is not as it would have left the factory. Is that good or bad? That is for you to decide and depends on what you want. Would it win platinum? Depends on the concourse and the judges. Saying that a car is over restored does not have to be taken as derogatory. It's just a statement that it was brought to a condition of fit and finish which significantly exceeds the condition in which such cars left the factory or was delivered to customers. Having purchase a 308 new I can assure you my car was no where near the condition when delivered that this car is.

Sometime I don't understand the reactions I see on this forum. It's like the height of political correctness at times. I call 'em like I se 'em.

 

Amen. I remember back in 1985 a club member imported a 288 GTO. It had a run in the paint between the two left tail light lenses. We laughed. Over restoring in some ways is the automotive equivalent to having plastic surgery. It might make you feel good but it looks unnatural .

 

A 288 in the shop when I bought my car had a paint sag on the lower left side the length of the door. Looked like they just poured the paint on.

 

Unfortunately the people forking over the big money on all restored cars really don't care about your 2 cents, or mine. Buying new from the factory is a different expectation than restoring your car. How many if us left the dealership with a new car disappointed and the manufacture / dealer did squat?

Anyone spending this money does not want paint drips running down the side if the factory did that , name they certainly want the new built restored car to run perfectly as the lemon law would not apply I'm pretty Sure if you were spending the money you would feel the same way.

With that said, if you go to pebble beach or any High end show, the restoration process is beautiful because the materials and craftsmen today want to make sure that ever piece is as it should.

Therefore, they are not over restored, they are finally put together perfectly as they were suppose too in the first place.

We are truly lucky as car guys to see some master piece cars from all shapes and sizes and colors, this was not possible 40 yrs ago, and it will only get better in the future.

 

I've always had a theory that we can call the "poster theory". This means that roughly 25 to 30 years after a kid has a poster of a car on his wall bedrooom wall his generation will have begun to accumulate the funds needed to buy said car, which will drive the prices up.

I hate the typical Dino-comparison, but the 308 is arguably more "iconic" than the Dino because it was the first Ferrari of the MTV-generation, meaning that it turned up in more movies, tv-shows etc because more people had televisions and more movies, tv-shows etc were produced. To the generation that grew up with them a red GTS will forever be Christie Brinkley overtaking the Family Truckster, Tom Selleck in a hawaii shirt and the half-drunk Dean Martin/Sammy Davis Jr duo trying to win the Cannonball Run.

Even not taking the typical Dino comparison into consideration I am absolutely certain that the 308 will go up even more in value, and perhaps peak to fall down to somewhere far above todays prices. My guess is that we are looking at 150' Eur for a QV and 100' eur for any decent driveable 308 within 24 months.

 

I know this thread has been mostly about the 308, but is it my imagination or is the 308 running up to (and might pass) the 328? The 328 being a bit more mechanically refined, but the 308 being possibly more "classic"... I wonder if it is the classic bit that folks are going for.

What are your thought putting the two side by side in this discussion?

Franny

 

I believe that ultimately the 308 GTB will exceed the value of any 328 because it is more closely tied to the Enzo error. The 328 was truly a stop gap car introduced to keep Ferrari relevant; increased power, plastic bumpers and slightly refreshed interior to keep it in contention with the offering of other manufactures. It's certainly a better car but gone were the classic toggle switches and other ties to the Ferrari family. It's often argued where the modern Ferrari era started but for me it was with the 328 because of those changes. Also, when looking at 328/308 prices, recall that by 89 the MSRP of a 328 was around $85k. Compare that to $60k for and 85 GTS QV, and which you could negotiate down. (I paid significantly under MSRP for my 85 GTB QV when new.) When the 328 was introduce Ferrari made it a practice to raise the prices of their cars by around 10% each years because they wanted to regain a sense of exclusivity they felt they had lost by the end of the 308 run.

 

There is a lot of talk about restoration and over-restoration on this board and I believe that a fundamental clarification is required. First and foremost this is a Ferrari discussion board so we must look at how things ARE in the Ferrari collector world rather than how they are with other car brands or how we 'think' things should be in the Ferrari world. You can spend days arguing what constitutes a correct restoration but the Ferrari standards (at least at present) are very well established. The cars that win the big shows are restored to a standard from which they never left the factory. The paint is better, panel gaps are tighter, and everything is just tidier than Ferrari would have done it. In fact if you could magically transport a perfectly original 0 mile car and show it next to restored cars at a concours it would not do very well.

Don't shoot the messenger. This is the way things ARE in the Ferrari world. You may not like it or disagree with it but I am merely reporting the present state of affairs.

In the Ferrari world over-restoration means that something is done different to how it left the factory. For instance if a bolt was black from the factory and you made it silver, or if a particular part had wrinkle finish paint and you painted it gloss black then those changes are considered over-restoration and points will be deducted for it.

In the case of the black GTB being discussed here the fact that everything has been made close to perfect is not considered a detriment in the Ferrari world. Liberties taken during restoration (for instance in the images braided steel brake lines were fitted when originally they would have been black rubber) would be considered points deductions and may lead a potential buyer or concours judge to look a little closer to perhaps see if other things would have been restored different to original.

 

I don't know the rules for judging in the Ferrari world but I think there should be different classes. For exemple in the Mustang world concours and thoroughbred are two different classes. The nicest are in the concours but the most original ones are in the other.

The problem I find is that after a super nice resto like the black car come out, everybody is then trying to copy it. The originality is then lost over some years. How many years have we seen Mopars restored with full body color Under the car? Which was incorrect, but peoples were reproducing what they saw as the best car once.

I will personally always prefer to look at a well preserved original.

 

There should be a preservation class. While there's nothing wrong with any owner keeping his car in whatever condition pleases him there shouldn't be a disincentive to maintaining patina.

 

Thanks John,

That's great information. I have an'85QV and am looking at adding one more car and have been looking at a 328 (as well as a 993). I had entertained the thought of another 308, but these are cars I drive and that would just be too similar. I have this nagging thought that the 328 valuation will start to sag a little as the 308s pick up steam. Sort of similar (but the opposite) of what happened to 356 valuations when folks got into the older 911s. From my very limited knowledge, I see the 308 as the last true classic, and some might argue that the carbed cars are the most classic.

The 328 is a great car, but I think it will eventually take a place behind the 308 just as the 356 Cabs now sit under the Speedsters - very much the opposite when new. One thing is for sure, what it was isn't necessarily how it will be...

Franny

 

There are.

 

In some shows. It should be wider spread though.

 

The funny thing about this discussion regarding restoring, bubble, new, old is the entire world is moving and evolving into perfection.

We see people whiten their teeth, we see women do breast augmentation and botox, we listen to music much better today than the old vinyl records and on and on .....

The reality is you cannot make everyone happy. Those that say a car is over restored are the exact same people that if they redid a car would do it the same way. There is NOT one person among us that would restore a car with a paint run , you couldn't even find a shop that would do it for you ..... The minute it was done the exact opposite people would say the restorer ruined the car I would love to see the shop put there rep on the line for that one

Personally, I like women today that are 40 looking 30 as opposed to when I was a kid and a 40 yr old women looked 65 with gray hair, yellow teeth and you know what else I also love listening to jimi Hendrix in my amazing new car with updated stereo without the vinyl static. Though at times, I do enjoy the odd vinyl, but that a rate occasion.

Anyone refuting what I've said above is a liar ...

I can't wait to see the same restored car in a gt/4 next .... Us 40 yrs olds all missed out what all these cars looked like brand new, we should be praising not only the shops that create these works of art, but the people with deep pockets that commission to do them for the rest of us to enjoy and critique with no skin in the game

 

Amen to that. I don't see anyone paying $345,000 for a car with paint runs.....LOL. We did before because that is what Ferrari produced and we had no choice. That doesn't apply today.

 

It strikes me that 308 owners are having the same discussions now that the owners of older cars have had already. There's a lot to be learned from their experiences.

I'm firmly in the preservation camp and value history over perfection. I've no issue with any owner keeping his car as pleases him but bear in mind once you've removed the patina it's gone forever.