Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Classic vent FTW!

 

P1 vs 918 - Page 43 - McLaren Life

"I had two key assumptions coming into this test which turned out not to be correct.

The first assumption was that P1's Trofeo R's were significantly stickier tires than the 918's MPSC2s. The data does not support that conclusion; in fact, it says the opposite, at least with the unmodified street suspension settings on my P1. The 918 on its MPSC2's has a grip advantage in locations where aero is not in play."

This also included 70-50mph braking, where both aero and mechanical lateral grip are negated.

 

No dude, don't try make yourself out to be right when you're indisputably proven wrong. A stickier tyre is still stickier when both cars are using normal suspension geometry, it's just that one or other may have a different optimum. So unless you're suggesting Porsche fiddled the geometry of the 918, the P1's bespoke Trofeo R is not stickier than the 918's bespoke MPSC2.

 

Still, it'remarkable that 918 is only around 100 kg heavier than P1, considering how much extra stuff it is carrying.

LOL.

You know the reason why McLaren didn't publish their time on the Nordschleife? That is a track of over 20 km, guess which car is faster
BTW, in Motor Trend Comparo, 918 was driven in HL mode, which will show greater varience between laps. Race hybrid is equivavalent to McLaren's hybrid system.
BTW, according to Treynor, Randy didn't try stints longer than 3 fast laps on the 918.

918 will use engine as a generator in the same scenarios as P1(except in HL mode) + brake regen

Well, PR stunts are McLaren's speciality... the only problem, they usually backire on them

 

For the nth time. The P1 doesn't 'regen under braking', It RECHARGES under braking using engine power.

And the 918 also recharges under braking in addition to brake regen in any mode other than Hot Lap.


The P1 does not have a regen function. What it has is a recharge function.

 

True.

You are correct.

Turning petrol into electricity is not recapturing kenetic energy (KERS) that would otherwise be converted to heat by the brakes.

Jim
Constructor Who Won The FIA Alternative Energy Champinship In 2012 With
P 4/5C Unlike The Troll Who Keeps Posting This Silly BS And Should Be Ignored.

 

The WP model is about 100kg heavier than the most heavily spec'd P1s.

Fact. Aids steering at lows speeds, opposes it at high speeds.

That's because that's all it could manage. Once the charge dies in HL it's effectively running race hybrid by default, which was slower than the P1. The best sector times from laps within the 15 the P1 did back-to-back also showed an ideal lap 0.8s faster, whereas the same done for the 918 only showed a difference of a few hundredths. So a more familiar driver would be equally fast and be able to lap for longer.

Yes but it doesn't generate as much from engine regen because it has less excess power over a lap due to AWD and lower PWR.

No it's just Porsche fans always accuse them of cheating, despite using a non-standard fixed roof on the Nordschleife lap. When the P1 comes back with stickier tyres and laps 1.4s faster, it cheated, but when Porsche comes back and laps >1s faster with no changes, it's legit - the Porsche fan-boy mindset.

Hope you've noticed above that your theories about tyre advantage have been dispelled by the telemetry.

 

Dude, that's exactly what I said, if you read what you quoted.

"The P1 regens from engine under braking or any other non-WOT instant."

Why wouldn't it. Regen from braking wouldn't slow down its lap time.

Okay, semantics. A generator recharges them via the engine rather than the brakes. I call that 'regen', you call it 'recharge'. Although I'd be interested to know if there's an engine braking affect???

 

Mr. G, I will be at Geneva on the 4th and looking forward to meet you and see your car!

 

u gotta work more on seat's comfort

 

Lemme get this straight... after latest LS @ss whupin', the 'conclusion' by the losing side is that: Trofeo's on P1 are less sticky that the MPSC2 "we were wrong to assume' that Trofeo's are stickier". But on the 991 GT3 test the Trofeo was 2 seconds quicker vs. the MPSC2. No 'assuming' necessary there! How weird!

and "LMFAO" keeps making a A out of himself. Now I am LMFAO. But only because it's gotten derangely funny.

And we don't need to see double O three on track. P1 can't even deal with the 'porker. Beatdown would be downright criminal. Can't wait to finally see the dang finished car! So excited.

 

No. At lower speeds rear wheels turn opposite of the front, at higher speed in the same direction as front wheels.

A more familiar driver would also be faster in the 918.
Ideal laps are just that - theorethical fancy.
It also shows that the 918 is easier on the driver, no limit handling problems with 4WS.
I'm willing to bet that 918 driven in Race hybrid mode would be no slower than P1 on Laguna Seca. And it would destroy it on lesser Pirellis.

doh! It doesn't need to since it has brake regen.

Safety reasons. The standard 2 piece roof is already superlight(few pounds), a fixed one piece roof will not bring any additional savings.

BTW, McLaren's safety feature on the Ring was not disclosing the time. Because it is dangerous. Especially since it is slower than 918

I have no problem with McLaren coming back with stickier tyres. I do have a problem with not inviting the 918 at the rematch.

Hey! Let's put the 918 on the Trofeos and P1 on MPSC2, than compare. Or cut slicks if the road tyres are not available in their respective sizes... I'm pretty sure what the result will be.

 

Thanks!
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Yes... and by doing that they aid steering at low speeds and oppose it at high speeds.

Randy had 2 previous outings in the 918, one at Laguna Seca, one at Big Willow. Except, it's already a proven fact that they would be, because once charge is depleted it is by default operating in Race Hybrid - it can only use what it regenerates.

Lack of excess power is why it needs brake regen.

Better airflow, lower roofline. Upholstery missing from under roof and rearview mirror console and light fitting missing.

They didn't want to get into a back and forth with Ferrari.

It doesn't have any alternative OEM tyres, hence no point. They didn't run on the same day the first time around anyway, you do know that right?

Or let's put them both on full slicks and compare.

 

Sorry I can't be more help. Much of the info is being 'PM"d' back and forth. Some tidbits are openly discussed, and some are not. Some things I heard via back channels, and some things from here and Rennlist, some things heard from contacts at Porsche around these parts. But don't worry, it will all come out pretty soon. I think part of the agreement with Motor Trend was that Ben couldn't be an 100% open book before the battle is published through them. Where all the numbers, data points, will be given. His much busier buzzing at Mac Life is not surprising as ye faithful are waaaaaaay more anxious to know all the dirt. Frantic folks needing an explanation right NOW! As well as Ben himself warped from the results, a reality not jiving with his previous forgone conclusions, beliefs, heading into the Motor Trend co-production. He's an accomplished piloti, and he was very very confident that he himself at the controls would outrun 918. But then neither he or his instructor could do it...and then no one else could either. Been looking for the 'reasons' ever since. No stone will go unturned.

And this ongoing 'debate'? Well...It has reached a point beyond 'stupid', and the lengths folks are going to...just juvenile with a healthy dose of denial, to explain the Mac universe collapsing in on itself rather than expanding. Due to the results of the LS battle turning out 'not as expected' by Mac ye faithful, the latest 'explanation' we are now to believe is that Michelin's best street tire is simply superior on road AND race track to Pirelli's best DOT Track rubber. Even though it's been demonstrated that using same car, same day, same track condition, Trofeo's had a 2 second advantage over a medium length track VS. Non 'green', MPSC2 (as standard equipment on 991 GT3). Eeeesh! I said earlier... the latest 'revelations' from LS battle means Pirelli needs to close up shop ASAP. Because their products are simply garbage vs. the French rubber. All Ferrari owners need to switch to exclusive Michi's if they haven't already. LaF owners need to dump the Corsa's immediately because it would be King of Kings on Cup 2's.

BTW, whatever has happened to the earth shattering P1 NB lap time of 6:36.8 sec??? Anyone else seen the video 'proof' provided by Ron and Co. that some owners were supposed to have seen (yet most other owners weren't even aware of such 'proof' when they shelled out $1+ mil ? It can't lap LSeca faster than 1:31sec on stock shoes, yet outruns many full race NB VLN GT3 class cars on race slicks with massive aero? There we have it folks: This universe is both expanding forever and will collapse in on itself in the end. Yep, P1 claims vs debacle's vs 'reasons' make just about as much sense...ie. NO DICE!

Anyhooooo...I am ranting, being a lunatic myself...well, because I'm still a bit bitter... my chance to experience 918 in the passenger seat, on street and track went Kaput over a month ago. Still crossing my fingers and will keep trying for chance in the future, since I'm not THAT big of a jerk and peeps in Porsche circles continue to be very generous. I'm grateful for everything that I was lucky enough to experience, going back more than 15 years, via generous dealerships and owners themselves.

 

There is no opposing the steering, this is done to increase the stability and help directions changes. This is why 918, GT3 and Turbo can hang with more powerful/lighter cars on the track.

And that is a few laps on each track, one of those in a preproduction car. There is still room for improvement.

Lack of excess power, LOL.
Imagine if it had more power, how outclassed the P1 would be.

So Porsche showed you CFD simulations that show better airflow? Or you're pulling this out of your ass, just like other nonsense?
So how much upholstery weighs + lights? A pound? Two?

You mean they realized that Ron's reality distortion field is not working?
BTW, how much confidence you and other McLaren cultists still have that it can come close to 918's time after this and previous comparos, or should we say fiascos?

yes, but EVO clearly said there was still lots of room with 918 to improve.

 

As with previous "Ye Faithful", you jump in head first, and you make great use of your 20 odd something posts so far.

Crying about AWS? Really. Really? It's just one more thing that helps 918 out-handle P1. Agility of GT3 at low speeds, and unflappable stability at high speeds. Win Win.

918 needs brake regen because of 'lack of excess power'. Yeah, sure sparky. Err, how far can P1 doddle around on 100% E-power? Brake regen and a larger battery means 918 has yet one more capability P1 does not.

Roof. That dang 'cheating roof' again. It gave 918 a huge performance boost. Yeah, sure Sparky. Kind of P1 super seams, windshield wiper, or lack of one, etc, etc, etc.

Randy's 'abundant' seat time. Yeah, sure Sparky. It's more to do with his ability to quickly find confidence to go fast, and yet faster, due to the in-built balance and dynamic capabilities of the chassis and drivetrain of the 'porker'. And the lack of pace in Race Hybrid? Runs the same 7:05 as P1 at the Ring in this 'underpowered' slow setting of RH. It uses plenty and re-uses plenty.

Another CLASSIC case of moving the goal post. It went from "P1 will be faster than all else at the track because it is much lighter, has more power, and get this, it has super destroyer mode..."RACE" mode with sub 3inch ride height, 300% stiffer damping, and 600kg of downforce".... to....

errr, ok, so P1 is only a tiny bit SLOWER than 918 on stock vs stock rubber because Corsa's are crap even though Mac utterly confident from day one, spent zillion miles developing car with this rubber..."it can sustain over 2g's cornering, etc, etc etc . ... and NOW....It will be, and is faster on proper Trofeo's....to....

ok, errr, P1 couldn't deal with 918 at LSeca because it needs to be properly set up in camber, air pressure, have proper armour all tire shine applied, etc, etc, etc.... to....

Ok, so at LSeca P1 on Trofeo is not faster than 918 on its stock MPSC2 made for the street, but that's because 'we wrongly assumed' high end dedicated track tires from Pirelli are stickier than Michelin's tires made for the street (and some track iuse)...to....

Ok, but 918 will be a lot slower in a 15 lap race. Oooh, got ya there! "see, look at how much slower 918 is on lap 2, 3, 4.......10". Yeah, sure Sparky. You think it only has to do with HL or RH being the only factors in your assumptions and analysis. Because the wear rate of a street tire vs. the wear rate of track rubber can be completely ignored here.

The Ring is 'dangerous'. 'They didn't want to get into a back and forth with Ferrari'. Yeah, sure Sparky. Because it's Ferrari that gives a rats @ss about the NB. Riiiiight. No, they fear the Germans, and only fear the Germans.

"There was no point" in inviting back Porsche for P1's do over at Anglesey because it doesn't have alternative OEM tires. Yeah, sure Sparky. For the first test EVO put zero effort and zero zero re-effort in finding the last bit of performance, the very last 100th of a second in the lap time. You keep telling yourself that 918 second time there with Porsche engineers would not have gone appreciably quicker simply by 'tweaking' tire pressures and a more aggressive footprint, like Mac did after fitting new shoes, along with new optimized kinematic.

As for 'both on full slicks' Why? You surely don't want to see 918 eat P1's lunch again do you? Except here it would eat its lunch and dinner...AND slap around 650S while yelling expletives at Ron and Co. ...and Sutt's and Harris and their missus,. Mr. "It's a whole new thing boys and girls.." "it's on a whole new level"...."it's in a different solar system"... Goodwin yapping "P1 engine has response on par with or better than the top V12's out there...even F12 V12" ...

That's the kind of stink that comes out of Ron and Co's mouths. Yikes. And that kind of imbecilic rhetoric perpetuated by the likes of 'ye faithful'. Errrr... I still can't get on with it with a straight face... "LMFAO". LMFAO!

 

Argo...you have a fantastic sense of humor! "Badda pup pap puh...I'm lovin' it" I almost never eat fast food, but I do enjoy that funky tasting Big Mac every once in a LONG while.

 

the P1 has its "hot lap" mode. Only it doesn't last longer than the push of a gimmicky button

 

Yes but it improves stability by opposing steering. If it assists steering in low speeds turns by pointing outwards, it opposes it when it points inwards. It really isn't that useful and is about 30 years old as a road car technology

So much BS from Porsche fans about pre-production, pre-optimisation... a wealth of excuses as always. If Porsche had lost it would have been a pre-optimisation car and McLaren would have cheated, just like Anglesey, where it won by 1.2s despite having the wrong pressure in the tyres and running in a sustainable e-mode against an unsustainable mode. Comparing sector times, the ideal lap for the P1 would be 0.8s faster (same as 918 time), whereas the same ideal lap for a 918 would be only a few hundredths faster.

That NA engine is already strung out to the maximum, increasing the power of the turbocharged engine in the P1 would be ridiculously easy, assuming anyone in their right mind feels it doesn't have enough.

Non-standard is non-standard - these are only the 'adjustments' that can be seen visually from a single perspective camera. I know that if a Porsche time was ever beaten in this manner the entire internet would break and emit an EMP from all the fanboys throwing a wobbly.

Let's see...

higher lateral in a high-speed corner in TG's test, even with PZCS...

winning by 1.2s on Anglesey Coastal (with the wrong tyre pressures) simply because it has some fast corners...

918 can't sustain HL mode for a full 7 minutes...

918 has loses 130hp above 165mph.

I'm very confident the P1 is faster on the 'ring. Every time the 918 drops out of HL it'll get killed, every time there's a high speed corner it'll get killed, every time a straight lets speed go over 130mph, it'll get killed. Basically everywhere there's not a second gear corner, it'll get killed and there's a whole shed load of such corners on the 'ring.

And examining sector times shows there's at least another 0.8s in the P1 on a track it isn't suited to. Watching the Evo P1 Trofeo R lap, it's obvious there is room to improve - which is the only lap we actually saw start to finish.

 

L-frickin-O-L

You're either 15 or you're Ron Dennis himself. Either way, not worth any more of my time.

 

Longitudinal stability at high speeds doesn't actually improve turning, in fact stability often runs counter to turning. There's no configuration more stable than front-engined FWD after all. Downforce however is a known winner in this regard, evident in TG's lateral g recordings. 2.15g vs 1.86g.

How far? About 90s in HL mode. AWD means it spends more time able to deploy full power and therefore not recharging. Different solution for a different vehicle.

That's only the mods we could see. Light fixture also missing and gutted interior on the roof.

That much I'll agree with, AWD is more suited to drivers lacking in seat time, or skill for that matter. The P1's 'ring time is not 7:05.

Everyone knows tyres determine these things, and my hats off to Michelin, they're the real winners here. Since when does RWD beat AWD out of 2nd gear corners, never has. If the P1 was intended for tracks like Laguna Seca, they'd have built a different car. It's made by an F1 team for F1 GP tracks, same as the LaFerrari in that regard. You wouldn't built a car with RWD to compete on tracks with 3 40mph corners and none above 80mph.

Never said that anywhere. The Laguna Seca is just too slow for the P1 and more suited to slower cars like the 918.

That's what the telemetry shows.

Based on the degradation in speed when the 918 is actually required to regen what it uses, the P1 would have enough time for a pit stop after 30 laps, although for a track day, you'd probably call it a day at that anyway. I think one owner mentioned doing at least two 20 lap stints and road driving on a single set of TRs with little degradation in time. MPSC2s a street tyre? Good one - hohoho! In that case. Trofeo R is a street tyre too because the Camaro Z28 uses it as standard.

Would that be because of all the times German constructors have won the F1 constructor's championship LMFAO?

List of Formula One World Constructors' Champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Country Constructors Total
United Kingdom United Kingdom 10 33
Italy Italy 1 16
Austria Austria 1 4
France France 2 3
Germany Germany 1 1

Oh that's right, Porsche couldn't compete and left.

For the last time, Evo are retardedly pro-Porsche - look at all the ECOTY winners, more Porsches than all the others manufacturers put together. When McLaren fitted the Trofeo Rs, Evo ran the wrong pressures first time out, hence the rapid degradation relative to the MT test. They beat the 918 time by 1.2s on lap 2, without using an unsustainable qualifying lap e-mode. I.e. with the correct pressure it could have gone faster and for longer. The reason is simple, see Turn 1 and Church.

http://www.enviroshine.co.uk/circuits/anglesey.gif

Full slicks on Spa. Let's see it try. There was another overweight car that was quick on magazine laps and slow on track days and faster tracks, the Nissan GTR. The 918 isn't anything too special at all in hybrid terms, it's simple another demonstration that AWD provides better traction out on 2nd gear bends.

And sleep.....

 

I think you mean it's hot lap mode lasts indefinitely, or as one owner put it after a track day at Spa, "until the fuel runs out."

 

LMFAO/EMU/MYCROFT,

Why do you use 3 different usernames on 3 different forums? Does that make your arguments more valid?

 

Goodwin didn't say that the P1 engine response was on par with the top v12 engines, he said it was on par with a Formula 1 car. He also said that it would be quicker than the GT3 cars on some tracks. We expect that kind of BS from Ron and the fanboys and even the occasional owner, but a race driver should know better.