375+ # 0384

Bill, I agree with you to the extent that the current Ohio title was irrelevant on the basis that it was not being conveyed on the sale. However, it is relevant to Wexner as he is claiming it's very existence will prevent him from registering his car in his home state. OJ tells us the Judge was satisfied with the original application but having read the Kleve affidavit, I do question if he was aware of all of the facts. I don't know how it works in Ohio but here you cannot obtain a new title for a dismantled carcass that has been sold to a overseas resident.

I suspect that Bonhams have not applied to have the Ohio title cancelled for the same reason as to why you see this as irrelevant. I also suspect Wexner will wait until his dispute with Bonhams is resolved before approaching the Ohio BMV on a title that everybody, including OJ, see as defective

 

it is rather appropriate that it is Oscar night on TV, all the proxies are ( reproman, mbzgurl, spot, etc ) are making an appearance in the push for
an award... must be for a fiction category of some kind...

 

And there is only one version of the truth. You "brokered" a stolen Ferrari in 1989, you lied about it to the FBI in 1989, you admitted lying about it to the FBI in 1989, you tried for years to con Karl Kleve to give up his rights (I have the casette tapes), you tried to make an ownership claim in 2013 (and I dare you to do it in an American court with sworn statements), and now, you have entered into some sort of arrangement with Chris Gardner which involve spreading cleverly engineered lies, such as posting pictures of Kleve's Race Road property that has NOTHING to do with the property where Kleve stored 0384AM.

Yes, and the Judge admonished the jury to note that the pictures represented the Race Road property where you wrongly believed 0384AM to be stored. Now, 25 years later, you try to decieve this board. Step into an American court, I dare you.

And the rest is that Guy Anderson is being untruthful and manipulative with this board.

You are wrong. Kleve sketched what was stolen for the FBI (quite accurately, I have the FBI records) and a few days after Kleve filed the report, Bill Victor brought his four polaroid photos to the FBI, you know, the ones that were used by the prosecuting attorney and confirmed as accurate by the men who were honorable enough to plead guilty.

Kleve's sketech and description were accurate, as were the photographs (which matched yours).

Guy Anderson, it is a lie to suggest (as your so cleverly do) that the pictures you post are of the property where Kleve stored 0384AM. Those pictures are of Kleve's Race Road property.

Let's see if by now, after all these years, if you have any shred of honor left. Post the affidavit that you gave to Chris Gardner's attorney. What are the terms of your arrangement?

This board is not stupid.

Joe

*

 

Very nice color BTW. Spent some seat time behind a 355 in Swaters Blue. Seemed to have purplish tones in direct sunlight.

Nice color.

 

I fully agree with Jeff's comment.

Guy, I get the impression that you take everyone here for idiots. Apparently you are posting photos that are of a different property and trying to pass them off as the actual storage location of 0384AM, but your statement above is incredible - you actually suggest that what a person stores on their property should be considered abandoned just because they aren't taking care of it to someone else's standard?

I am not a lawyer, but I seem to have a much better understanding of "personal property" and "ownership" than you do. Why do you keep using the word "abandoned"? Did Kleve at any point voluntarily relinquish ownership of the stored vehicles?

A few posts back, you suggested that you would let the forum members see what was going on. Your post above certainly adds clarity - and that clarity does not present your arguments in a good light. Your argument, frankly, is ridiculous, and an offense to common sense. It really, really smacks of lawyer weasel-ease.

I do own a Ferrari. What I do with it is none of your damn business, no matter how much you disapprove. I made a replacement cover for the flywheel inspection port, and I drew a stick horsie on the cover with a Sharpie just for fun. Sacrilege, right? How shameful, right? Ferrari Classiche would be outraged, right? Someone should get right up here and try to claim the title of my car, since I have apparently abandoned it by my disrespectful treatment of this Ferrari!
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Brilliant, a clear case of Cavallino Rampante Anorexia.

Forget Classiche, the threat is that the RSPCA (UK animal charity) take your car on the basis of horse neglect

K

 

Joe, likewise can you tell us what incentive you gave Mr Charles Morse to take part in your scheme to unilaterally redesignate the monies he paid you on Gardners behalf.

 

That 328 is mine...I will be picking it up soon, perfect timing as 328 values are shooting up...

See you in court?

 

Very funny and for a bowl of popcorn and 90% of the car I am very happy to take on the case.

Kim

* The Last Boy Scout....troop asked me to leave but the Girl Guides are much more fun

 

Ok, 80%, but in return you find me the real flywheel inspection plate - I'll make "real" 328 out of it and then challenge that yours is a fake.

 

Sounds fair.

Seespotrun has given me the address of a great "take what you want" storage facility in Ohio that has one in stock and who are happy to ship via Belgium

 

Correction: via Atlanta

 

Does the question of laches of statute of limitations ever come up in this 30 year saga from the 1980;s to present? At some point doesn't the passage of time affect rights?

 

Thank you for the clarification

Destination London via Belgium after a stop over in Atlanta to pick up the paperwork.

 

Don't forget to change the chassis number when you show it .

 

when theft is involved there are no statutory limits of time vacating the theft... stolen property remains stolen and cannot be legally transferred...

 

I take it from your response that the answer is no, none of the Ford-Lawson attorneys has bothered to research the effects, on their contention that Joe Ford did not export the Ohio parts, of his subsequent words and deeds between September 2013 and June 2014, and of the fact that a third party now has custody and prima facie ownership of the Ohio parts (and of the car as well).

Regarding the advice to read as a whole paragraphs 4 and 11 of the HoA, these two paragraphs are as follows (jpegs attached below):

"4. Bonham’s, BC and the OC Parties will all work closely together to resolve all problems relating to the Car’s history and ownership and present a detailed and transparent account of the Car’s ownership from new."

"11. BC and OC Parties will surrender all existing registration documents, USA titles, Bill of Sales, and other conveyance documents they possess individually or jointly to be reviewed by Bonham’s as to the validity of which documents will be used in the conveyance to a new owner procured by Bonham’s for this Ferrari. All documents in the OC parties’ possession relating to the purchase and ownership of the Car by Mr. Kleve, including the original Bill of Sale for his purchase of the Car from Jim Kimberley, probate orders and all US license, title and other documents evidencing the ownership of the Ferrari by Mr. Kleve and his heirs."

I fail to see how Bonhams' paragraph 4 duty to "work closely" with Ford and Lawson "to resolve all problems relating to the Car’s history and ownership and present a detailed and transparent account of the Car’s ownership from new," limits Bonhams' duty and sole discretion under paragraph 11, to review all certificates of title "as to the validity of which documents will be used in the conveyance to a new owner procured by Bonham’s for this Ferrari."

The plain English meaning of paragraph 4 is that Bonhams must work closely together with Ford and Lawson to "present a detailed and transparent account of the Car’s ownership from new." It is not a plain English construction of paragraph 4, that it was intended to grant to Ford and/or Lawson a veto -- or even a vote -- with respect to Bonhams' paragraph 11 determination of "which documents will be used in the conveyance to a new owner."

Your reply raises another issue that I have asked before but which you have never answered. Assuming that Ford and Lawson are successful in persuading a court -- in Cincinnati or in London -- that they were fraudulently induced to enter into the HoA, what is the remedy? Why is an award of money damages not the correct remedy? Doesn't the equitable remedy of rescission require a showing that the money damages are inadequate to relieve a claimant's injuries? Does the fact that Gardner was not a party to the fraudulent inducement have any effect on the availability of rescission? Does the fact that there is a new prima facie owner of #0384 have any effect on the availability of rescission?

How strong is the defense of Bonhams and Swaters based on unclean hands?

What about a defense of laches? Ford and Lawson evidently discovered the "game-chaning" emails in August or September, but they waited three or four months to attempt to file their Rule 60(b) motion. On these very Ferrarichat pages you declined repeatedly to disclose your bombshell evidence. In retrospect one very likely -- and inequitable -- motive is that you chose to delay until the eve of oral arguments in your appeal from Judge Nadel's entry of the Court of Appeals' Final Judgment, in order to derail that appeal prior to a ruling.

Also, do you not agree that a claim of fraud in the inducement is an affirmative defense? That is, the proponents of a contract do not bear the burden to prove the absence of fraud in the inducement. Rather, the burden falls on the challenger.

What does your legal research say about these issues?

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I thought Joe Ford has admitted that he has no idea what was said or done at the hearing on Karl Kleve's fraudulent application for a certificate of title. The fact that there would be no one appearing in opposition suggests that the hearing on Kleve's application would have consisted entirely of the Judge reviewing the perjured application (copy attached) for its facial sufficiency, and asking Kleve if its statements continued to be true. If this is what happened, the fact that a certificate of title was issued to Kleve indicates that he verified his lies to the Court. There really is no other scenario that fits the known facts.
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The fact of the matter is that you are the person here attempting to spin the truth to promote your agenda.

I am fully versed in what happened in the courtroom and the reason you will not post that
information. Just like you did not post the lie infested Kleve affidavit for a Court Ordered title.

There is only 1 version of the truth and that is; Karl Kleve could not show he owned a Ferrari according to law.

Not hearsay, not rumored, not implied, but FACT. Kleve could not prove he owned a Ferrari with documentation. I will add that Court Rooms deal with Facts and not opinions like yours.

I object to your ridiculous claims.

You are and have been spinning the truth while holding back pertinent information.
But that is the only play from OJ.

Post the part where the Kleve collection picture was used and why it was used in Court. While you are at it, then post where the seller said he lied to the FBI about what he told them and the reason they jumped out of their chairs.

Talking about tapes, when you originally called me in 2010 and I told you that you don’t know squat about the Ferrari 375 Plus #0384, I realized at that time you were an opportunist.

I also suspected that you were just another “Bounty Hunter” looking to profit on the backs of others. Just like Mark Daniels.

You started our very first conversation with a LIE. Just like the LIE from Kleve that he did not tape conversations.

I knew Kleve lied and taped the conversations, as you knew since you heard me say it on tape and talked to me about it.

Let’s get something else clear!

I do not know anyone named Christopher Gardner! I did not enter into a contract with anyone named Christopher Gardner! I did not get paid by anyone named Christopher Gardner! So why do you keep bringing up that name. I told you before I never met the man. Do you have comprehension problems?

Oh Wait!!!!!!!! Is that the same Christopher Gardner that you posted he sold a car with you. Didn’t both of you receive monies for that same vehicle?

Let’s refer to that money as: ‘Ill-Gotten Gains’.

I have read, from your post, that the buyer was instructed to send a portion of those same Ill-Gotten Gains to your son for further payment to be made to you.

Now let me see if I understand what happened here?

Christopher Gardner sells an item for 300,000.00 and of those 300,000.00 dollars you receive 60,000.00. Now you are claiming that sum of money (240K) was Ill-Gotten and that your (60K) was a clean transaction. What? Are you kidding me?

It seems abundantly clear the buyer wanted his money back. It’s also clear that you did not have the funds to return to the buyer. Now is this where you make him a member of the Ferrari Project?

Well can you please tell all of us why he would agree?

We red-necks down here in the Deep South can answer that one for you:
The man was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Now your ridiculous argument is that you will pay the buyer back after if you receive Ill-Gotten gains from a Ferrari. So tell us why that same condition does not apply to your partner Christopher Gardner. Perhaps he is also waiting to receive funds from the same Ferrari to pay the same buyer. Your posts are such BS!



Now let’s address the ‘Good Faith’ purchase of a 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384 in Tucker, Georgia (not Ohio). This purchase has nothing to do with a 1955 Grand Prix racer, silver in color partially disassembled, no VIN,

The Ferrari purchase was drafted and orchestrated by me with the seed money and actual purchase performed by Christian. There were 3 witnesses present that observed all of the details concerning the legal purchase of the abandoned 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus #0384. These witnesses were all going to testify about the events of that day in Federal Court in Atlanta.

The seller sold the vehicle as an abandoned hulk that was rescued from an abandoned junk yard in Ohio. (Stolen was never mentioned but that info has been withheld by OJ)

The initial identification was made 2 weeks prior to my involvement by a Famous Ferrari Historian.

That identification was made by the late Mr. Gerald Roush of The Ferrari Market letter. Gerald Roush was well informed on all things Ferrari.

The seller warranted that the vehicle for sale was abandoned and discarded in a field in Ohio for over 25 years (he was a real Ohio resident at that time).
The seller also warranted that, for the sum of 50,000 dollars he will legally offer and sell said vehicle know as the Ferrari 375Plus #0384 and NOT a 1955 Grand Prix 4.9 racer silver in color no VIN etc.

Furthermore, the seller gave a full accounting to when he discovered the Hulk and how he came about that same discovery. All information was verified thru all proper channels and a ‘Good Faith’ purchase was performed by the participants.

Ocean Joe can spin it any way he likes but the result was confirmed and certified in Federal Court in Atlanta. (Not Ohio). Maybe Ocean Joe should look up ‘abandoned’ in his law books and also “Good Faith Purchase” as well.

Or perhaps someone that is well versed in law (a real lawyer) could explain it to him. (Just so you don’t spin this OJ, I am talking about the laws of the Great State of Georgia including Federal law and not South Dakota law or any other diversion.)

So are you, Ocean Joe, now claiming that Gerald Roush was involved with the sale and transfer of a so called STOLEN Ferrari? Well, if that is what you are implying, then you will need to furnish a ‘REAL’ Police Report with the proper information listed and not a BS complaint.

I just want to remind you of this fact.

The events were heard in Atlanta Federal Court and the trial resulted in acquittals. The almost 1 year ordeal resulted with indisputable evidence proving the Hulk was a “Good Faith” purchase and that verdict rendered the FBI seizure of #0384 impossible.

Hey Joe, Did you know that in the USA you can’t be married unless you are issued a marriage license?
So how is it that you are trying to convince the informed readers you can own a Ferrari without proof of that ownership in the eyes of the law?

Oh, just make it up using a Forged Bill of Sale then lie to the State of Ohio then swear to that lie. That’s how a Fraudulent Title is produced and Ocean Joe claims ownership on just such a Title.

OJ your Ohio title is born of lies, deceit, and forged paperwork. The evidence is overwhelming. That document needs to be involved in a fire.

 

total BS, the challenge regarding Kleve's ownership... his ownership is undisputed, ... there is more to ownership than producing a bill of sale, Kleve did not need one... he satisfied his claim to the court which is sufficient and ALL that is nee... only the antagonists are making noises about ownership, after the fact...in trying to justify their actions... and stay out of jail

 

Nowhere can I find any statements where I have accused anyone of being an idiot.
But wait….. there is still time!

Now you ask about the photos, Ok, so let’s talk about the photos showing what Ocean Joe has not displayed for the last 5 years.

I informed the readers that Ocean Joe has withheld the Kleve ‘Fraudulent Affidavit’ for a Court Ordered title. He has and is withholding information that kills this entire BS case.

Now I must give credit to MBZGURL for being the first to produce the fraudulent document that was used to perpetrate a crime in claiming ownership.

I asked for that document from Ocean Joe and allowed ample time for him to produce that damaging information. I have explained to the readers that Ocean Joe possessed that document and requested it to expose the deceit related to this vehicle since 1994.

The abandoned portion of this entire story was addressed in a Court of law in Atlanta, Georgia. 1989

Ocean Joe continues to withhold damaging information from you, the readers.

Now, this is the best way to smoke out vermin.

If you did not understand the question posed to Ocean Joe, I will restate it differently.

The picture was pivotal during the Courtroom proceeding to address the abandoned aspect of the trial.

The display of the pictures was an important part of the trial.

The seller that turned states evidence testified that he did not disclose that the Hulk was stolen since he did not know or believe it. The seller grew up in Cincinnati Ohio

He also testified that he did not think he did anything wrong.
So I ask, how can anybody show criminal intent? But you won’t hear that from OJ.

Now, I ask GordonC…. what is with the hostilities?

That’s true, what you do with your 308 is your own damn business and not mine.


But here is a suggestion.
You can do what Kleve did.



1) Remove the motor, electrics, gauges, then discard, sell or trash them.
2) Take off the wheels, knock offs all the spare parts and trash them.
3) Remove the rear bodywork, take off the doors, the exhaust, the carburetors, the oil lines and discard them all.
4) Cut off the rear frame members, hack the body then cut the wire harness into pieces.
5) Rip out the interior, then throw it away while trashing the tube frame sections.
6) Let the neighborhood kids trample the remains then proceed to hack-up what is left.
7) Then don’t forget to put it outside unprotected in the elements for 25 years to rot.
8) Then when the authorities ask for you to remove the junk, just say NO, and then sue them.

Just lie to the world by saying you were just getting ready to restore the Ferrari remains.

 

Ocean Joe posted earlier where a Mr.G.Hair testified at the Atlanta trial. He posted it as if Hair was a Ferrari expert and was proficient in the field of appraising values of Ferrari. This was all a bunch of BS and OJ does not know what he is talking about since he wasn’t involved.

Now here is the real story:

Mr. Hair was an Auto wholesaler in Roswell, Georgia. I knew him well.
The FBI posed as customers at the car lot Mr. Hair was wholesaling at.
They were dressed in suits and failed to identify themselves as FBI agents.
They were looking for Ferraris to buy.
Of course Hair could find and sell Ferrari’s to each of these nice gentlemen.
They asked if Hair knew Anderson and he confirmed he did.
They talked and then a few months later a subpoena arrived in the mail addressed to Mr.Hair.
I could only laugh when I heard. He was a true car salesman.
This occurred with many dealers situated around and near Roswell, Georgia.
They all got subpoenas except the slickest one of them all.
That person was Mr. Bob B.
He did get a subpoena but he did something brilliant.
He called my attorney screaming at the top of his lungs.
My attorney put him on speaker phone and I was in the office listening.
My attorney asked Mr. Bob B what he said to the FBI and he said he told them I was an
A—hole and more….. just the sort of things the FBI loves to hear.
My attorney picked up the phone and advised (for free) that he could recant those statements to the prosecution and tell them his client was a person who walks little old ladies across streets, gives shelter to the homeless and saves unwanted dogs and cats.
It worked and he was relieved from testifying.
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Two men were charged with interstate trafficking in stolen property, property belonging to Karl Kleve. Those two men pled guilty. The two men were not charged with, and did not plead guilty to, trafficking in abandoned property. It is ridiculous to now argue otherwise.

Three more men (yourself included) were similarly charged and after a three day trial in November of 1989, they were cut loose because the government could not convince the jury that those three were smart enough to KNOW the property was stolen when they handled / brokered / or etc. the stolen property.

There was NO question that the property belonged to Kleve or that it was stolen from his property on Harrison Avenue, adjacent to a multi-story apartment building with several witnesses, not out in middle of no where, out in the woods, like you tried to mislead the Ferrari community by posting photos of Kleve's irrelevant Race Road property.

So your lengthy posts are getting you nowhere, likely because this board ain't stupid as you obviuosly think they are.

I was optimistic that maybe you, now that you are older and perhaps matured into a real man, that maybe now you would begin to redeem yourself and make a constructive, truthful contribution of information, but, I see that you would rather lie and slander an old man.

I bet if a vote were taken of the readers of this thread they would all admit they are laughing at you as you still try to justify the unjustifiable.

Like I said, if you really believe what you are saying, come do it in an Ohio court under oath . . . c'mon big guy . . . . I dare you.

Joe

*

 

Does any of that matter, for a fact by 1989 any big even number Ferrari was worth a million or more. The Japanese were buying everything, Enzo had died and the Red Horse was red hot, . To claim the car was a wreck in 1989 and so wasn't worth anything is in my eyes simply not possible. Here's a couple of comparative sales for you;

250TR #0736 - 1987 $1,400,000
250GTO #4757 - 1987 $1,600,000
375MM #0374AM - 1988 $1,653,000
250GTO #3589 - 1988 $4,200,000
250GTO #3909 - 1989 $16,000,000
196S #0776 - 1990 $3,700,000
335S #0656 - 1990 No Sale @ $8,523,000
335S #0764 - 1990 NS @ 9,000,000
250 GTO #3607 - 1990 $9,600,000

All prices are in USD and even if the car was worth 10% of a GTO as it stood which is possible, then you would value it at $1.6 million.

 

To claim a rotten frame with a destroyed front body surround, 1 unusable radiator, and 1 distorted oil tank was a car...... or even 10% of a car is not just a stretch, but an illusion. Here is what really happened and look at the names of the players. Do you mean you are not aware of what really took place that resulted in the same cars claimed values crashing in 1991/92. Come on now, this is looking more like reality TV. The same reality TV that does not resemble reality.
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