Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

Thanks...got it.

 

16 degrees is nothing compared what the Midwest and I'm sure Canada have had. Problem is insulation is really minimal down here and they are not equipped to clear the roads. More snow and freezing rain tonight, but I'll work on more pics when the roads clear.

 

Just saw this beauty.
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The salesman I spoke with said the same about the production not going to the full length of time previously stated. Just assumed it was a sales pitch. IMO the hardtop is more pure. This car is all about purity.
The Alfa i4C s the only new car that does it for me. Unfortunately perhaps I'm too old and carry too much ballast. Trying to talk my son into one but he wants an M3.

 

Meanwhile in the Netherlands....the police are having fun...
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I do not like the look of the Spyder. The berlinetta looks a lot better. Hopefully, they will offer a stripped out GT4RS at some point in the future. (I am a bottom feeder) .

 

What is the weight difference for thre spider, is it less rigid,to me it looks fine.

The 4c needs a proper motor (350HP turbo with some revs), dynamic sorting and maybe even a stick as an option.

 

You are still missing the point of this car, or any Alfa Romeo.

Everybody that actually owns one is loving every minute of theirs
Pete

 

Since I drive an elise I dont think I miss the point of this car. Unless of course being an alfa romeo its point is thst even though its unecessarily dynamicaly flawed you should love it because hey Its an Alfa. Even ferari abandoned this line of appeal years ago.

Its a lightweight CF car, its inherrant "flaws" may relate to its minimalism, these are not flaws, these are charms and part of what makes it so special. Hower an unbecoming motor, which lacks charm(alfas always had somorous mtors, although the 2.0 is questionable) and questionable dynamics on the limit are unforgiveable sins in the 2st century.

Now some may look at the price and say where else can you get a cf tub for anywhere near that. But the point of a CF tub is its stiffnerss and weight. A stiff tub means you can have superlative suspension dynamics, the alfa by all acounts does not.

So far it looks like a gimick car. looks great in red, swoopy styling, has a cf tub. Now thye need to complete the package. The japanese have no problem getting 300hp from a small 4cyl motor and the germans are doing 350hp.

Or is the argue,ment that alfa spent all the money on a cf tub, so everyone is ok with the rest being a parts bin special half baked? BTW I have nothign against parts bin specials, if all the parts used to create a superlative machine, see stratos elise et al.

Given the spec I expect far more from the Alfa.

As to people enjoying the car, if you spend 75k you are likely to enjoy whatever it is, and posssibly the alfas dynamic shortcomings are not prevelant on the street, at least most street conditions.

In any test of the alfa vs a cayman and elise the alfa comes last, given the basic spec it should come first dynamicaly speaking. I get this car, all my cars are "imporactical" and skewed towards dynamic experience, the alfa has the skew, it just does not deliver what the spec promises. Maybe they should send it to lotus for tuning, or maybe Alfa should try harder than just good enough.

 

+1 from another elise.driver

 

Well at least Alfa had enough money left over for a spell checker.

 

True

 

I happen to like my "gimmicky" car. More HP? Not sure it needs that. 0-60 in 4.1 seconds, and a nice torquey engine seems plenty to me. Not sure what you've seen about the dynamics, but for twisty back roads it's a confidence inspiring, communicative car.
Does the Cayman win shootouts? Yes, as most reviews I've seen complain about the non power steering, loud interior, and difficulties with ingress/egress. US versions seem to have better reviews on the dynamics, maybe the extra weight helps. And most reviewers compare it to the Cayman, as a daily driver.
I even took a friend who was interested in the Spyder for a ride, and did my best to talk him out of getting a 4c: clearly not the car for him as he should get a Cayman. The 4c is not a car to take to work, or a fancy dinner. It's for barnstorming back roads, getting done with a drive tired and sweaty. And as that tool it fulfills its mission.
Sure, send it to Lotus, or back to Alfa finishing school. Next thing you know, it'll be a Cayman clone or a Ferrari. When it should be happy being an Alfa.

 

Agree.

 

Amen. Exactly what all Alfa's (since the 1950's) have been about. They have never been the best handling, produced the most cornering G's (Bertone's ES30 excepted) but the most fun to drive.

Alfa's produce irrational emotional responses from owners that "get it" and many waste a fortune trying to make them into, for example, race winners when they could simply have bought something else, ie. 911 Porsche.

Yes the GTA's/GTAm's won a lot of touring car races in the 60's as did many other Autodelta cars but these were not unmodified production cars, but highly modified race cars where considerable changes were made to turn them from quick fun machines into really fast race cars. The front and rear roll centres were altered, etc. The Autodelta catalogue is huge ...

If the 4c out cornered a Lotus or was a better all rounder than a Porsche there would have to be something wrong with the world. Should it?, maybe?, did Alfa Romeo try to achieve this?, I don't think so but just like the La Ferrari is not faster than a 918, Alfa Romeo's priority is that it's drivers have a great time. Simple as that.
Pete
ps: Take my 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV. It has twin overhead cams, twin carbs, 4 wheel disc brakes, 5 speed gearbox ... was it the most powerful, advanced and best handling car in 1971? No, but yes it had advanced specs an could humble many much larger engined cars but no way was it the fastest, best handling car in 1971 ... but gee I doubt many cars in 1971 made their owners connect with them as much as a 1750 coupe did when the driver drove away from the dealership.

 

Sean.....I understand where you are coming from. And being an Elise owner you obviously understand light weight and tight handling characteristics and the fun that provides.

Let me start off saying I am not an Alfa guy. I am a Ferrari fanatic and have been for 35+ years owning 16 different Ferraris and experiencing a lot of seat time in quite a few more. But I began becoming intrigued long after this car was announced. Not for the performance numbers, the CF tub or anything specific. But from comments from those in Europe that owned and have driven the car extensively.

Are there faster cars? Certainly. Can a Cayman beat it on the track? I think that has been proven. I don't plan on racing the 4C so to me that is irrelevant. And I don't care if there are other cars with better specs whether more hp and faster or can pull another 0.1g or whatever is the paper or track number. It's all about the experience when you get in the car fire it up and hit the street. This car is just an amazing amount of fun to drive. The seats and position, the sounds when you get on it, the go cart handling all add up to creating the feel you have when you drive it.

I like to chose cars for the feel of the drive and experience created. Cars with soul rather than absolute numbers. This car has it. It's not just a gimmick car. It's a real performance car you can enjoy in the real world and in normal driving situations.

If you ever get down here to sunny and warm Naples look me up. I will hand you the keys so you can see what I am trying to explain.

 

Persactly. You may have become an Alfista
Pete

 

Pete.......you may be right!!! This little beauty came to our show here in Naples. Now I want one........


credit to Bill Moore for his fantastic photography
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As yet another Elise owner I join the ranks of the skeptical to un-tempted. All the superlatives sound to me like excuses. And I can't test drive one anyway so it's sort of academic. Cayman GT4 sounds like a vastly better car for modest money more than launch edition 4C. In fairness all the ridiculous regulations for vehicles in the US probably killed the lightness; even Lotus had to have special exemptions for the Elise to get it past some DOT regs and keep weight under 2000 lbs and that ship has sailed.

Welcome to the US with green-ness as lip service only, with exhibit A being that gas-guzzling SUVs bear no gas guzzler tax while being driven single pilot in the millions, yet it's literally impossible to make a truly lightweight car, even for those of us willing to accept the attendant risks.

 

I hear what you are saying. I own a boxer as deeply flawed yet charismatic vehicle as they come, but it was designed in 1970.

No the 4c does not have to have the fastest car out here, nor should it be, but, it shoudl be as good as can be given its spec and thta its the 21st century.

Its not 1950 ir 1970 anymore. With the design tools available the 4c should have all its admitted good points, without the flaws. The flaws it has do not make it better. Namely numerous acounts of dynamic flaws at the limit, and a relatively low hp motor lacking in Alfa charm. Its a drivers car, thta needs a mtor to go with being a drivers car, nor should it have any dynamic question marks..

Compare a 50's alfa to any of its peers, particularily those british ones. The Alfa had a fantastic motor way beyong high tech in comparison, great handling, good gearbox and brakes, to go with the style.

Now look at the 4c, its got the style and the CF tub. Its motor compared to peers, like say from japan or germany(I am refering to 4cyl turbo units) is sub par. Its handling does not compare well with an elsie, nor with apprently even the new miata.

Point is Alfa has a great platform with great styling, I have no issue with the interior or its comparative "crudeness" to a porche, these to me are virtues. Porches are boring, thye do the job but the feeling after a drive is, so what.

I do expect a motor on an Italian car to fizz zing and sing, a 6500 redline in todays age and a blare are sub par, almost like a diesel motor. More than one scribe has decried weird handling on and near the limit.

To me the Alfa needs a proper Italian motor a soprano voice and power that builds with revs, the integrale had one, a 1600 alfa unit is a gem, and the GTV6 unit is considdered one of gods own creations, none of these are expensive ferrai motors but hey were great.

I dont kid when I say let lotus sort the handling, it wont take anything away, it will add. As to the motor, pity carlo abarth is not still around. This car needs more Italian magic not less of it. To me with tis CF tub it should have all the handling greatness of an elise and more with all the goodness of the 4c and a motor like an integrale only better..

BTW I grew up in my mothers 1750 bertone coupe.

Yeah definatly going to go to naples, driving an alfa there what could be better.

 

Have you driven one?

I haven't, but find me any Alfa Romeo that has a redline higher than 6500. Even the wonderful, and yes it is wonderful, v6 engine does not. The Alfa Sud engine will rev very high but I think the standard redline is around 6500.

Your mothers 1750 coupe redlined at 5500 or 5700 ... I have one.

You are expecting Ferrari like engines in an Alfa Romeo. Alfa Romeo engines have great torque spread and are capable of revving very close to redline all day long, every day, they do not necessarily out rev other engines.

Plus add on modern emissions and fuel economy limits AND the fact that we know, like all Alfa engines, you will be able to fiddle with them and make considerably more power if you want.


As for your other point ... so a few journalists have complained about the handling on the limit. Who the fnck cares? They are journalists not racing drivers, and road cars spend 1% of their time at the limit.

Again please drive the car. If you don't enjoy driving it, then by all means tell us. Don't magazine road test the 4C.

There is no such thing as a perfect car, and just because the car has 75% of it's chassis made out of carbon fibre does not mean it was going to be perfect either.
Pete

 

Methinks some (Boxerman?) are going to have trouble with the turbo charged era. Hate to break the news, but there has been a paradigm shift. You can argue the fuel economy/emissions all day long but turbo is the new norm. Ferrari is doing it. Porsche has hinted that all 911's will become turbo. And Ford F150's best selling engine is turbo 6, not a V8.

I do love my normally aspirated engines (Boxster, 308, Boss 302) but they are a dying breed.

I'm well aware that the turbo engines don't perform in real world economy as well the emissions lab so don't bother.

I traded in my 911 on the 4c. And am not looking back. 911 was a nice car but I could have been in any German sedan unless I was really pushing it. (granted a loud sedan without much low down torque). And that is why I love the 4c. It's fun at normal don't get you thrown in jail speeds. The 911 was boring unless I was driving at non legal speeds. Maybe one day I'll get to the track and can experience "twitchy handling" but till then the back roads at 8 tenths are fine.

I would have considered a Lotus, and almost bought one 4 years ago but thought the engine sounded ho hum. So to each his own...and until you've driven one I wouldn't believe everything you've read.

 

Yep Alfas had low redlines 6k when othe rcars couldnt do more than 5k, thta was 40 years ago. Alfa like MG died in the market because thye kept producing the same old stuff.

Modern emissions and fuel economy have not crimped other turbo engines, try a subaru which is 300hp a mitsubishi etc. The issue witht he Alfa engine is essentialy that its a Fiat econo car engine, with an alumninum block. FCA could have tried harder with this motor.

The commnetary here reminds me of the vette people defending the rentacar interior on the C6 vette as it was durable. Then the c7 came out and excuses did nto need to be made.

 

To those criticising the engine in the 4C you are missing the elephant in the room which is that Alfa as a company was effectively in the intensive care room as a manufacturer after almost two decades of mis-management of the brand by Fiat. There simply wasn't money in the pot to justify the development of a bespoke engine for this car and the larger capacity V6 units Alfa were using prior to the 159 and Brear models being axed were not going to meet emissions reg's and were simply too heavy for the 4C. It is something of a miracle the car ever got to production and it makes the best use of the very limited resources the engineers were given to develop it. It was also fast tracked for production to build interest in the brand in preparation for the range of new models being developed.

The US market has not seen the decline of Alfa first hand as those of us in Europe and elsewhere have. The 159 was a great looking car but shared engines with GM from some fairly lack lustre models. It was simply outclassed by the German opposition in nearly all areas but styling. It was also an attempt to make the cars more mainstream and it didn't work out as planned in terms of sales success.

If the relaunch of the brand with the new sedan and SUV models in the pipeline is a success then possibly at some point down the line Alfa will decide to make a successor to the 4C which may just get the sort of engine you desire as there will be larger capacity units available by then.

 

There is not one word you have written here I disagree with, excpet I do like
turbo motors in small cars, its the best of all worlds, great power in a small light package. I come from a wrx many eyars ago. If there is somethign I do not agree with in the modern world its auto boxes, at least i woudl liek astick option in what is supposed to be a connected viceral car.

I agree a modern 911 is essentialy a sporty lexus with two doors, It does the performance job and you get out at the other end and feel so what.

As you said you do backroads at 8/10ths and I am sure the Alfa surpasses your porche in every way there.

I suppose as a lotus person, these types of small cars serve a dual use, street and track. The Alfa promised so much in terms of being able to track, and yet from what we read it does not deliver. To me the Alfa promised to be everything that was good about the lotus and more, its not, unless I guess you stick to 8/10ths ad are prpare to deal with an unescessarily ahrd ride.

Dont get me worng, I like the Alfa, am a target customer, and one day the aftermarket or Alfa will offer all the bits to make it truly great. If the car was differently developed I would have one by now.

Mabe some ehre are right, I dont get the Alfa thing, that is apparently a car great to drive on road up to 8/10ths with low reving tourquey motors, and Alfas have always been this way. (although the 50s ones were not.) but its the 21st century and cars can be good everywhere, esp if they are mid engined CF tubbed.

Alfa touts the car as having track prowess, as does chevy with the C7 z07, neither really does. Many of us take our cars to the track in order to exploit their full performance, streets are too crowded and policed. A car like the 4c with such promise could easily deliver more, and maybe in time alfa will see fit to do so.

I can see why a lotus does not appeal, its motor sounds like a bucket of bolts, its crudley constructed and small, looks liek an angry insect. Yet its superlative to drive on road and track with great steering.
The Alfa based on spec and being built by a modern auto manufactuerer could have had it all, to me it does not due to lack of effort and the assumption that it works for 85% of use. Kinda like the new z07 can only do one fast lap beofre heat soak dials it back, but hey 95% of owners will never use it differently.

If porche gets one thing right its cars are mostly fully developed, they dont fall down on the last 2/10ths of their performance envelope. Alfa aspires to compete with the germans, its cars should be complete packages. thge 4c should and could easily be a lotus for adults.

Look at the turbo 4 motor in the mercdes, BMw Subaru,VW, Mistsubishi. None of these are ferrari motors, they are what passes toaday for mass produced items, look at their performance specs. Look at Honda. If the 4c is a flagship, its motor needs to be soemwhere on pace.

Its all very well to make excuses for a car, callign it the alfa thing, but we dont need to make 1960s excuses in the 21st century. That the Alfa may be noisy, lack Ps and other creature comforts is a given and expected. But given its spec and weight it should ride great, handle superlatively up to and past the limit and steer as if connected to the brain. That the 4c for an enthusiast driver on some smooth backroads is better than everythigng else I get, but it shoudl be able to do the rest of the performance envelope too.

A 4c with a 300+ Hp mtor would be in a different performance league, A 4c with sorted dynamics by a company like lotus or even inhouse by ferrari would just be great, it would be sublime. Anyone can put stiff suspension and big tires ona car, thats how volvo made the 850 handle, but there is more to it that that.

Yes I am sure if I drove a 4c I woudl love it for the drive, I am also sure that I would expect more, and to me as it is now it would not be compeling. I also see Alfa is sellign all they can make so dont care. Probably like the people who first bought an elsie many owners will tire quickly of their 4c because it lacks the "comforts" of a boxeter or whatever. There will be a robust used market with lots of aftermarket upgrades.

But Alfa should stick with it and make a great one.