First Timer takes on '86 GTB | Page 2 | FerrariChat

First Timer takes on '86 GTB

Discussion in '308/328' started by millsj, Feb 6, 2015.

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  1. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Now you will want to clean off the gasket material off the cover and press a new seal in place. I used a flat razor blade to clean the mating surface. I used a small amount of grease on the new seal and was able to push it back in with my hand. Here it is all ready to go back on the car.

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    Now you will need to clean the old gasket off the mating surface on the car. I stuffed a paper town in the open distributor to keep any gasket material from falling into the engine.

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    All clean

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    While I had everything apart, I cleaned up the rotor. There was a little rust, but a little gentle sanding cleaned it up nicely.

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  2. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    I also cleaned the 4 points in the distributor cap with some sandpaper.

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    Now reinstall in reverse order. Install the gasket and the cover. I put some grease on the inner surface of the seal and it slid on easily over the shaft. Look at it closely to make sure that it did go on without distorting. You may need to get a mirror to see the bottom and forward parts.

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    Now the rotor and cork gasket. Make sure that you install the rotor in the same orientation that it was in when you removed it. If you don’t your car isn’t going to run very well.

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    Then the cap and rubber cover.
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    As projects go, this one isn't too bad.

    Next up is replacing the fuel accumulator, fuel filter and crush washers on the banjo fitting at the fuel filter. I am half way into this project at the moment, and it hasn't gone as smoothly as the distributor. I'll post my progress soon, but I am working through this issues.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
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    Brian Crall
    #28 Rifledriver, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
    Rotor removal isn't required to get the distributor base plate off, the seal will go around it quite easily. If you have big fingers getting those 4mm screws out on the front bank of a 328 or Mondial isn't easy.


    The mounting flange is asymmetric so the rotor cannot be installed in the wrong position.


    One of the factory fixes for oil seal leakage was to remove the locating dowels around the 2 6mm studs and allow the seal to do the centering of the plate rather than forcing it into a position that may not center the seal on the shaft.


    Also if it is an early 3.2 or TR be sure it doesn't still have one of the rubber insulated cam extensions. Those leaked oil right past the rubber and into the cap.
     
  4. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    I read the service bulletin related to the cam extension and my car fell in the VIN range that originally had a rubber extension. How can I tell if it still has the rubber one or if it was updated to a solid one?
     
  5. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2006
    15,834
    Cerritos, CA.
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    Mike
    #30 miketuason, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Joe, This is what I always do, I use a can or two of the aerosol "Gunk" engine degreaser, let it sit for about a min. then, I high pressure wash everything that I sprayed with the Gunk. Comes out almost spotless everytime. Of course, you have to be careful and cover all the vital parts that doesn't need to get wet. After it's all clean, it's easier to pinpoint where the leaks are coming from.
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  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
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    Brian Crall
    #31 Rifledriver, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
    I can see in the photo it is not rubber but it will look like a 2mm or so black circumferential line between the flange for the seal and the flange for the rotor mount.


    It will also probably have a distributor cap full of oil.


    Those are a big reason I named the early TR's the Liberian Tanker.
     
  7. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    #32 millsj, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
    Thanks for the clarification.

    My original plan was to pressure wash the underneath side of the car. It is nasty and no fun to work on in it's current state. I was derailed when I found the fuel leak. While the car was running or just after running, it was dripping every 2-3 seconds. I was hesitant to let it run enough to get it warm to help the degreaser and wanted to limit it's movement with it dripping fuel everywhere. I will wash it after the fuel is fixed and before I tackle the shift shaft seals. It's also nearly impossible to tell where it leaking oil with it so dirty. Oh well.....baby steps.

    I've pressure the underneath of another car in the driveway (jack stands) and you do get some odd looks from the neighbors.
     
  8. jjeffries

    jjeffries Formula Junior

    Sep 4, 2012
    254
    Connecticut
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    John Jeffries
    Cool thread, thanks for taking the time to document and post. John in CT.
     
  9. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Let’s see if I can get this thread up to date as to where things sit today. I mentioned earlier that I had developed a fuel leak in the banjo fitting on the fuel pump. I also determined that the fuel accumulator had a leak in the diaphragm. In order to fix either of these, I needed to remove the fuel pump and accumulator, which are mounted on a bracket that are thankfully fairly accessible.

    There are three lines attached to this system-the fuel line from the fuel tanks, a breather hose from the accumulator to the fuel tank and a fuel line from the accumulator to the fuel filter. There are also two electrical connections on the fuel pump and three nuts holding the bracket in place.

    Prior to starting any work related to the fuel system, disconnect the battery. You don’t want any sparks with gas fumes present and you will have plenty of fumes. You will also either need to drain the fuel or pinch the fuel line. I opted for the later. I got these pliers at Harbor Freight for a couple of dollars. All of these parts are located on the driver’s side just in front of the rear tire.

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    I would also recommend putting some sort of bucket or pan under your work area. You will spill gas during this process. It’s easier to use the gas as weed killer than wiping it off the garage floor. I did both in the process.

    Next you will need to remove the two hoses circled in red. These hoses are on the rear side of the pump. The small one is the vent line for the accumulator. If your diaphragm is compromised, you will have fuel come out when you disconnect this line. Loosen the hose clamps and slide the hoses off. I had no issues in this step.

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    Now move to the forward side of the bracket. You will need to disconnect the last fuel line and the two electrical connections. You can disconnect the fuel line at either place circled in red-the accumulator or the fuel filter. I found it easier to disconnect at the accumulator, but it doesn’t matter. I plan on replacing the fuel filter, so I was going to have to get this free anyway. Make sure you are using a flare wrench on these connections. Now disconnect the two electrical connections. There is a rubber cap over the two connections on the fuel pump. The ground wire is circled in yellow on the fuel pump. The power is on the top side of the fuel pump. It will be obvious when you look. You can either disconnect the ground wire where it attaches to the frame or at the bottom side of the fuel pump. Make sure to label the connections, but you will see that the connectors are different sizes to hopefully keep you from cross them on reassembly.

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    You will now remove the bracket from the car. It is held on with three nuts. The two circled in red and attached from the bottom. The one circled in yellow will need to be removed from the top side of the bracket.

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  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The reason those banjos leak is because of the hard line. When the cap nut gets tightened it often torques the hard line and because it does not flex easily like a hose, it will in use try and spring back loosening the check valve in the fuel pump. It is a really common problem.

    During reassembly do your best to install and tighten the fittings in such a way as to prevent stress on the pipe in its installed position.
     
  11. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    This is a close-up of the yellow circled nut. You can see that it is tacked to the frame. It took me a few minutes to figure this out since this whole area is covered in oil, grease and dirt. A squirt of brake cleaner revealed the truth. YUCK!!!

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    With a little wiggling, you should be able to remove the bracket with the accumulator and fuel pump attached. It will look like this.

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    Since I will be replacing the accumulator, I needed to remove it from the bracket. Remove the accumulator is easy enough. If you have gotten this far, you should be able to figure out how to remove the accumulator from the bracket. There is a strap holding it to the bracket. Remove the nuts holding the bracket in place and it will be set free. However, and this is a big however….the hard pipe that connects the accumulator to the fuel pump will have to be removed. This pipe is fragile and difficult/expensive to replace. If you are just replacing the accumulator, you only have to remove the one flare fitting. Remember to use a flare wrench.

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    Since I had a leak at what appeared to be the crush washers on the fuel pump, I also needed to remove the fitting on the other end of the hard pipe. This is where things took a turn for the worse for me. The first issue is that you can’t really get a hold of the nut (check valve) on the fuel pump side of the banjo fitting due to the studs for the electrical connectors. I took my bench grinder to an open ended wrench and was finally able to get a decent hold on the check valve.

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  12. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    More to come when my new subscription goes into effect. I am out of storage space for pictures with the non-subscription account. I Just paid, but I guess it takes a while for the subscription to take effect.
     
  13. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Rifledriver-makes sense with what I found. The check valve loosened easily from the fuel pump, but the cap was a no go. I'll have more detail in a little while.
     
  14. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Back in business....

    Long story short, I bent the metal hard enough that it cracked. More on that in a minute. Let’s just say that I was less than thrilled with myself! I knew it was fragile and hard to replace, but still managed to break it. In any event, this was how I finally got it loose. The pipe was already bent and cracked at this point, so I was a little more aggressive.

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    I was able to hold the bracket in a vice, hold the check valve with my modified wrench and hit the flare wrench with a hammer many times with a lot of force. The cap had basically fused on and refused to come off even though I had sprayed it with Kriol for numerous days. I also put some heat on the cap with my heat gun. I was a little hesitant to put a torch on it since there was still a little fuel in the pump and I was smelling fumes.

    I have been in communication with Verell at Unobtanium about sourcing the parts to make a new flexible line. Now that it is broken, I would rather have a flexible line. I won’t worry about breaking another one if I have to remove these parts again in the future. I’m still pissed at myself. Oh well….moving one.

    Since I was not able to just reinstall the parts, I thought I would take the time to make it all look nice and pretty. The paint on the bracket had chipped and there was a little surface rust in a couple of areas. The whole assembly was also covered in oil and dirt. I removed the fuel pump, and rubber feet and shot it with some fresh black paint.

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    I cleaned up all the remaining parts and reassembled them on the bracket. One tip-mark the strap on the fuel accumulator and fuel pump so you will know the orientation when you put it all back together. I used a little ridge on the accumulator as a reference point.

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    And here it is all back together sans the new flexible line.

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    Next up is the fuel filter, but I am tired or typing. More to come.......
     
  15. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    Sep 3, 2001
    11,013
    panama city beach FL
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    rick c
    i too broke the hard line.
    i had one fabricated.
    not too big a job.
    ream out fittings, bend new line, braze fittings back on.
    got the line from mcmasters/carr for a few bucks.
     
  16. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    They are packed up, will go out tomorrow AM. :)
     
  17. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3

    Dec 14, 2003
    1,168
    Virginia Beach
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    Tim
    If you were having a leak in your fuel line, then this was probably causing your pressure loss. I dont think it was your accumulator. Also remember there is a check valve on the end of your fuel pump. (this can lead to pressure loss too)

    My guess is that it will start right up when you get it back together.
     
  18. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    I've got a new check valve to go back in when it goes back together. It may be good but a new one is cheap if you get the mercedes one.

    The accumulator had a good bit of fuel in the vent line so I think it is bad. The prior owner said it was slow to start when warm, so I am pretty sure the warm start issue pre-dates the fuel leak. Obviously, the leak isn't helping matters.

    Verell-Thank you very much for all the help!
     
  19. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    Definitely bad. There should NEVER be any fuel in the accumulator's vent line. The accumulator works just like a bladder type captive air tank for a water well. There is a spring loaded bladder between the fuel side & the vent side. The vent is let air flow in & out as the pressure changes on the fuel side of the bladder.

    The new check valve is cheap insurance as it's a PITA to change once everything's back together.
     
  20. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    I received all the parts from Unobtanium to make a new flexible line between the fuel pump and accumulator and hope to get the car back running this week. However, I couldn't stomach putting my nice clean parts on a gunky undercarriage. This weekend, I pushed the car out of the garage and did a little cleaning with the pressure washer and degreaser. I didn't go nuts and focused on the frame and very lower parts of the engine. I used some brake cleaner on the visible metal parts higher up on the engine. I didn't want to risk getting water near any electrical connections. It may not be perfect, but it has to be a lot better. Hopefully, I won't have to degrease my arms every time I work under the car.

    Yes, I did get some slow drive-by's and some odd looks while my spring cleaning was in progress.

    Before and after
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  21. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
  22. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
  23. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    She's alive!!! I finally had enough time this weekend to focus on the car and got it all back together. Last I posted, I was on hold because I broke the hard line connecting the accumulator and fuel pump. Unobtainium Supply Company was able to supply the parts to make a flex line. Thanks Verell for putting up with my many questions. I have never made fuel lines and did want to make sure I was doing things correctly.

    The new line is not as compact as the hard line, but I think it will be better in the long run. It should be easier to disassemble if I ever have to take it apart again in the future.

    Here is a picture of the new flex line.
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    And the old line for comparison.
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    Installation is reverse as posted previously.

    Here is a picture of everything installed.
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    I did have to go back and tighten the flare fitting on top of the fuel filter, but all is dry after a test run last night.

    Another bit of good news.....the car has always had a warm start issue. During this project, I had diagnosed the accumulator as being bad. Fuel came out of the vent line when it was disconnected. While I was at it, I also replaced the check valve. We took the car to the grocery store last night and the big test was how started after shopping. I hit the key and the car started instantly! Wooohoooo!!!! Other than the time it took me to work my way through these repairs, I would call it a success.

    An oil change is on the list for this week, and then I focus on driving the car. Seeing the car on jacks and not being able to drive it was a real bummer!
     
  24. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
    7,025
    Groton, MA
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    You're quite welcome!
    BTW, really like your car's color!
     
  25. millsj

    millsj Karting

    Oct 17, 2011
    214
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Joe
    I took the 328 out last night for a brief drive to warm up the oil for an oil change. Car was running great I and was having a blast. I pulled back into the garage to drain the oil and noticed a steady stream of coolant pouring out from under the car. Crap!

    I went ahead and put the car on jack stands to drain the oil and to find the coolant leak. Turns out, I found the leak from the top side. I am 99% sure that the hose that split is the one that runs to the heater in the nose of the car. It blew out right at the hose clamp on the motor. I might could cut the end of the hose off and reattach, but that isn't any good. I am of the mindset that if I am going to have to fix something, I only want to do it once.

    Time to do some more reading. I skimmed one how-to this morning and it looks like a pain, but not an impossible job. While I am in there, I will probably replace all the other hoses in the nose. The prior owner did replace some of the coolant lines in the engine bay, but I have the impression that he replaced the ones that are easily accessible. I'll have to take a closer look now.

    On the bright side, still no fuel leaks and no over heating with the loss of coolant. I was watching the temp gauges closely since I wanted to make sure the car was up to temp prior to draining the oil.

    Time to roll the car back into the operating spot in the garage. More to come......
     

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