Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

Yes, that's what I thought. Those sounds would be a novel experience for me. It would be neat if you or someone else could record the interior noises and post a recording. I was only able to listen to a display car being started. However, I did record the noise level a few seconds after the car was started as it idled briefly above 100 dB. Here's a 6 second data set with time stamps graphed against sound level (dB) on the Y-axis.

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And here's a sound level data set I recorded last year on my Cali30 starting up (~19:04:37) for comparison, peaking at 97.25 dB. The Cali30 is fairly loud but not as loud as the 4C.

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As for the trunk latch, I thought it had failed after you had started using it. If it is only an adjustment issue, hopefully it was just a PDI item and it won't require further attention. I played with the display car's latch a few times on 2 different occasions and it worked in a very reassuring manner.

 

Yes I understand. What I meant was that I believed swapping bi-LED lights into cars that have been set up for powering bi-Xenon lights may require more than just different connectors as the power supply and circuitry may also be different. I also don't know if there may be software differences as well.

Oh, so perhaps there's hope for me after all? Yes, the CF housings look a lot better. However, the Canadian configurator does offer choice of a black (plastic) or a CF HALO for the spider. So external CF panels are not completely standard.

Many thanks for the interesting technical heads-ups and explanations on 35W/25W bi-Xenon vs. bi-LED lights. Perhaps The Mayor can verify if the bi-Xenons in his car do self-level. And perhaps the lower output of the bi-LEDs in Europe is also purposely done to avoid the same ECE R48 regulation requirements?

I also wonder if bi-LEDs were chosen for the bug-eyes because LEDs run cool whereas the Xenon lights might be too hot for exposed applications. However, LED technology seems to be progressing in leaps and bounds so I imagine they will even surpass Xenon output before too long.

 

There may be different connectors, but software differences, I don't think so, the 4C is a relatively simple car in that aspect. When TheMayor mentioned the car having AC from the 80s, he wasn't very much off the mark: the HVAC unit in the 4C is the one from the Fiat Cinquecento (from the early nineties) and Seicento (from the late nineties), and the HVAC control panel comes from the Seicento as well. It was chosen because it was the most compact & lighter unit in Fiat's parts bin. (it's a completely mechanical unit, actuated with bowden cables).

I was talking about the bug-eye CF light housings, which together with bi-LEDs are now standard equipment on new orders in EMEA, not about CF panels in general. The "halo" on the Spider is the roll bar, and is indeed optional.

I'm not familiar with DOT regs, but there's a chance they don't; given the limited volume, they might have been granted an exemption, like on the 8C, which does not have self-leveling even though ECE R48 would require it.

The bug-eyes exist in both bi-Halogen and bi-LED (and there was a bi-Xenon version in the labs, too). There is no significant thermal limitation on exposed application. Thermal management is more of an issue on covered lights, which is one of the factors which initially made covered lights unfeasible (minimum clearance between projector lens and clear cover).

Besides, LEDs don't run that cool. They do need to be cooled as much as possible, in contrast with traditional lights. The LED DRLs in my 8C have some pretty substantial heatsinks: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzA2WDc2Mg==/z/UL0AAOSwGvhUEv-Y/$_57.JPG
And so do the 4C EMEA bi-LEDs: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA1OVgxNjAw/z/eLAAAOSwrklU~vHi/$_57.JPG

 

Keeping things simple (and light) is the right idea behind the 4C. As for the light connections, I think the power supply would also be different for halogen vs HID vs LED.

Yes, that's what I meant... that the provision of CF exterior materials is not part of an overall CF external trim level (i.e. all exterior CF trim) but rather, a part-by-part application of CF as standard material for some components. I think the original plastic bug-eye headlight housing was simply too cheap-looking and probably attracted a lot of dirt.

I'm not si sure about this as I get the sense the DOT may be quite anal about this sort of thing as class action lawyers and huge lawsuits are quite common in the US. And where the US goes on car safety issues, Canada will at least match.

Will the newer 25W bi-Xenon EMEA headlights be bug-eyes or covered?

Well, at the moment I tend to agree and disagree with you here.

LEDs do generate heat but they project heat backwards into their base mounting and not forwards towards the glass covers. That's probably why you need heat sinks for your 8C LED DRLs but at the same time the light lens will feel much cool(er) to the touch from the front. I have a zillion LEDs lighting my home and that's been my experience with them. LEDs also use less energy so the absolute amount of heat generated (and accumulated) should be lower than with other light sources.

 

Will people be cross shopping alfa w cayman gt4? Or spider with coming boxster spider?

Alfa will still win on looks, exclusivity and lose on practicality, performance. Tie breaker of emotion usually goes to alfa but porsche may have caught up with these models esp w stick shifts

Will be interesting

 

BTW, I saw my first 4C in the flesh at Ferrari of San Antonio today, It's a red first edition with only 80-something miles on it that the original buyer traded for a white one he wanted more. They are only asking 80-something for it too, and I've seen them scalped at over 100K.

It's a ridiculously charming car, so if you want one, call Ferrari of SA!

Cheers,

George

 

The Gt4 will crush the alfa in performance as well as emotion, hell the regular cayman s already does, one can only imagine what a gt4 would do to it with being manual, more raw/visceral. Regarding exclusivity, what are the production numbers for the alfa so far? You can bet the gt4's are not going to be or anywhere near a cayman's.

Looks, subjective, I saw two alfa's at last months CC and they disapointed big time. From the pics I thought the car looked great but in person the proportions are just silly, atleast to me, not elegant, agressive or sexy and that front grill is over the top IMO. Could be a fun car to drive no doubt but personally the proportions of the car with its lines, just can't be taken serious. Who knows, maybe that's the point, just a fun, silly looking "baby ferrari". Stretch the alfa out and it would likely look stunning but then of course lose the whole go kart/lotus experience its going for.

 

I checked out the GT4 and the Boxter GTS before signing up for a 4C Spider. Of course, they don't have the GT4 available to see yet but they did have the GTS and the S. I thought the GTS (with aftermarket exhaust) started and idled louder than the 4C. I also believe the GT4 is the more polished DD and track car, also looks good on the outside but everytime I sit in a Porsche I want to go to sleep. IMO, their interiors are plain and dull. I also prefer convertibles so the Boxter GTS would be a better match but unfortunately it's the same interior again. Looks-wise, the Boxter is also not as pretty as the GT4 and not as interesting as the 4C Spider. The Boxter is too conventional, not enough of an occasion to go for a drive in. I'm looking for a weekend car, not a practical car. If I want practical I have my pickup truck.

The Porsche salesman quoted me a GT4 price that was $20k higher than a 4C limited edition spider so I think it was probably MSRP+. But price was not a deal-breaker as the GT4 is a hot item with limited allocation. What convinced me about the 4C was that it comes across as a more complete novel experience, more interesting to own and drive. I never buy very smooth and fast cars because I find them boring, any idiot can drive them well. Those cars you buy them, own them and that's the end of the story. I like cars that are a bit tricky to drive well in but are very rewarding when you get it right. They are more engaging and make me work on my driving. I think the 4C is like that. In fact, I think Italian cars tend to be like that. Of course, I haven't test driven a 4C yet but I have a few months before I actually place an order. The GT4 is a great car and a bargain but it's not a convertible and has the same old interior and will likely be "too smooth" so I'm not worried about missing an opportunity.

 

Want a mid engine dd? Cayman.

Want to drive an event? 4C

 

With the stiff track set up of the gt4 it won't be a smooth ride and with manual it will be more engaging than the 4c, not to mention it sounds better, anything but boring and likely far more exciting than the 4c, though time will tell once its out and compared. Did you drive the cayman gts? For the record I don't entend to own either cars, already own and use a 991 gt3 as my DD, which is far more raw, interesting, sounds better and basicly blows the doors off both. But if I were to choose between the 4c and the gt4, gt4 all day.

 

The GT4 has a beautiful NA flat-6 and it should sound better. However, the turbo I4 in the 4C also has its own racy character and the spider being open, will sound better than the coupe. Sound-wise for an NA engine, my Cali30 sounds even better than the GT4 so I'm not actually missing the sound of a high-pitched NA engine.

The 6MT is a neat thing Porsche did and I think it suits the GT4... I do like playing the pedals and blipping the throttle. However, I also feel the 4C works better with the TCT because the revs in a turbo I4 will likely drop too much between shifts. You want to keep the little engine on the boil and a 6MT would be slower, with definite pauses between shifts. Like I said earlier, I think it will be interesting to explore that approach to performance.

The GTS was not really what I was looking for, wrong colour, not a GT4, and had an aftermarket exhaust which was very loud but in a raspy way. Unfortunately, the roads were way too cold, too dirty and too dicey to try and test out such a car. Here's a shot of the GTS...

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...and incidentally, I prefer the way Porsche did the GTS lights, using darkened accents instead of bright silvery accents like in the covered 4C lights. Here's a comparison I made a couple of days ago using some photo-editing to see what would happen if the 4C lights had darkened accents. I think it would look more interesting, don't you think?

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Looks-wise, I think the Cayman is prettier than the 911 and the big wing of the GT4 actually improves the look even more, taking away the last hints of the "bathtub" shape on the rear deck. I really like the look of the GT4; it's purposeful and the car has the substance to deliver the promised performance. The blue or yellow one would be my choice.

If I had the room and the justification, I would definitely "not mind" owning both a 4C and a GT4.

 

I'm sure Alfa will come out with a higher HP/performance version (Quattrofoglio) in the future. A 2 liter, 300 hp would be sweet.....

 

You're opinion is a bit ott; Crush this, silly that, far more that, better such, can't be taken serious so.......

Again the 4C and the Gt4 are two totally different cars. for a totally different price, before options and even more so after. In my country a basic Gt4 is twice the price of a 4C.

And great car that Gt4, but don't overdo it; Porsche themselves certainly haven't. The Gt4 is a Porsche parts bin special, but with less HP than a standard Carrera S (even more so than a Carrera S with Power pack). But at the same time lets A.Preuniger cheekily tell you that in true Porsche Motorsport fashion it has more power than advertised, sure it has ;-) Furthermore the Gt4 doesn't have many weight saving measures (if all) but does have some underpinnings from a Gt3. Porsche certainly used a very calculating approach when developing the Gt4.

 

i think they will have similar prices in usa esp with dealer markups.

 

Well put. Looks as we all know are subjective, there's no right or wrong, just different opinions. Having said that, IMO the gt4 is vastly better looking than the 4c, more aggressive stance, just better lines and proportions. The 4c isn't going to be able to compare to the gt4's performance and I get there's alot more to our choices than simply performance numbers, feel/agility, sound, engine response, manual vs dc, stearing feel ect ect. And the gt4 will have the 4c beat in all those areas. I would't be surprised if the gt4 is more exclusive in terms of production numbers than the 4c, but that's just speculating at this point, time will tell.

I have nothing against the 4c and if you look in the early pages of this thread, I was really enthusiastic and hopeful for it but became very disappointed as more details came out and performance comparisons were made and then seeing it in person. I have not driven it, so perhaps their is something truly special about it thats not coming through when its tested, or when I saw it in person.

While the gts is no gt4, shame you didn't get a chance to drive it.

Settle down with your condescending tone, it's not needed here. It's simply a discussion about a couple machines. A previous poster asked about the 4c comparing or taking customers from the gt4, which is why the discussion ensued

I agree, very unlikely many gt4 customers would want a 4c and yes the gt4 is about 10-15K more than a 4c here in the US, maybe less with mark ups and option variances. They are not far apart in price though.

If this thread is just to sing the praises of the 4c and not be honest or objective about it, so be it.

 

There is an aftermarket box for the 4c now that gets 300 HP out of Germany. That is one of the advantages of having a turbo. McLaren "upgraded" all their cars after the 458 came out.

 

I would say 4c will be more 'exclusive' than gt4/spyder because all caymans/boxsters (porsches in general too) look alike. so even if there are more 4c's around than gt4's, I feel the alfa will seem more rare.

 

I can see that perspective, and to the lay person, I agree they do look alike, fair point. The 4c is more unique if you lump all caymans/boxsters with the gt4.

 

It's not just the actual rareness. It's the very nature of the engineering of this car that will unique.

There is no one else in the world but Alfa who would have made a car like this. In fact, its just plain mad to try.

It sacrifices EVERYTHING you think a modern car should have for one purpose -- a unique driving experience. I mean -- you couldn't even make a glove box?

We will never see anything like it again for less than $200K.

And, it's rather pretty and unique looking, not to mention low volume and hand built. I very much enjoy mine but would trade it for a spider when available.

 

The base 4C is $31K less in the US than the base Gt4, before options, and that will ofcourse increase while options are added: CCM's $7.4K, bucket seats $4,5K, satnav $3K, sport chrono, and the list goes on;

And I've read many dealers in the US do not charge mark-ups on the 4C.

O, and ofcourse there's wasn't a condescending tone from me; although to be honest in hinsight given your hyperbolic reactions and your above statement, it might have been in place ;-)

 

alfas have been selling around $80k so far in usa. thats in same ballpark as gt4. if base alfas eventually start selling in the $50's, then i agree not comparable to porsche

 

That'll be the launch edition than, in that case that's quite a hefty mark-up above the quoted base-price of the 4C.

 

For what it's worth, over here the GT4 base price is 50% more than the 4C base price. 71k vs 105k.

What dealers ask and what buyer's pay are never the same.
Best to ask real buyers what they paid rather than rely on asking prices in ads.

This guy paid 71k for a LE 4C
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143806272-post29.html

 

The alfa cannot compete with a Gt4 in areas such as refinement. Done right it could exceed a Gt4 in performamnce feel and rawness. But it needs 350hp, compliant suspension and possibly a stick, all of which are doable.

Send the car to lotus for suspension tuning. Turn up the wick on the motor, bye bye Gt4If a regular 4c is going to be 55-60K, then what type of spec could a regular 75k 4c have. Much more power much better dynamics?

 

OK, I haven't driven the car yet but judging by what has been written about the 4C I am also not convinced by some of the criticisms it has garnered. Take performance for instance, its Nürburgring lap time compared to 3 record lap times for the Cayman S:

- 4C lap time 8:04, by Horst von Saurma
- Cayman S lap time 8:04, by Walter Röhrl
- Cayman S lap time 8:16, by Horst von Saurma
- Cayman S lap time 8:25, by Horst von Saurma

It's interesting to note (the then new 4C) was piloted by Horst von Saurma, the same driver who had earlier recorded slower lap times in the Cayman S. Von Saurma was primarily a Nürburgring specialist and chief editor for German automobile magazine Sport auto until February 2013. Röhrl is a former racing driver and world champion rally driver.

Similar Nordschleife lap times for other cars from Wikipedia:

- 8:09 Audi RS4
- 8:07.97 Renault Mégane RS Trophy
- 8:07 BMW Z8 E52
- 8:06 Subaru WRX STi Spec-C
- 8:05 BMW M3 E92
- 8:04 Porsche Cayman S
- 8:04 Alfa Romeo 4C
- 8:04 Audi R8 V8
- 8:03.86 Honda NSX-R (NA1)
- 8:03 Porsche 911 GT3
- 8:03 Aston Martin V8 Vantage
- 8:02 Aston Martin DBS
- 8:02 Mercedes CLK 63 AMG - Black Series
- 8:01 Nissan Skyline GT-R R33
- 7:59 Dodge Viper SRT-10

Engine output comparisons:

Alfa Romeo 4C
240PS

Cayman GT4 > Cayman GTS > Cayman S > Cayman
.....385PS ....> ...340PS ......> ...325PS ..> ..275PS
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