Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

Seriously. Anything we say about the 4c is immediately condemned by a 60 line rant.

 

So where were you... we waited all morning? Oh well, there's always leftovers. Hope you treated yourself. Happy Birthday Mate!

 

Alfa's return to the USA was rumored off and on for twenty years, and for all that time I too feared they would bring over something comparable to a Mazda 3 and try to sell it for Corvette money. But the 4C isn't that at all. On the contrary; this seems to be the sort of Alfa that made postwar Alfas famous. This car is a real outlier.

Maybe it just isn't to your taste.

 

So, Mayor (and all you others who have actually bought and driven the car): I'd really like to know your real world opinions and impressions of the 4C. And I would like to read about it without the rants of mr Boxermans LOTUS/PORSCHE/ETCETERINI-COMPARO opinions based on nothing better than what he reads online.

Hell, I'll drive my 8C ( I know: its also a Piece of Shirt: I read it online somewhere) down to LV for a few days to play in the area, just so we could spend a day or two doing some real world comparo fun, I'm so intrigued...

If your impressions have been previously posted in this thread, I'm not willing to wade through the crap to see it. This thread has been useless for months now, and that's a shame, and down to one individual who can't get over himself. I'll willingly concede that all Loti are better cars than anything else ( I mean, really, who gives a ****?) if that will appease the boxers of the world (this is principally an Italian Car forum, and we all know they come with huge caveats, NO?). Can we please move on and read some actual impressions of the 4C somewhere?

Mods: This thread is useless, not for want of interest, but for want of some moderation of one individual who cannot help himself. Not good for business, I would think...

 

Sorry couldn't make it . Thanks for the happy birthday and I hope your celebrations went well. If it is your birthday, then Happy Birthday back at you
Pete

 

Full disclosure. I have driven the car exactly 120 miles. I bought it and left for overseas almost immediately (as usual). The car has 160 miles on it now so I haven't driven it in race mode. I won't drive it again for probably a couple of weeks.

Initial impressions

It's not for everyone. It's a bit crude with almost no creature comfort. The AC looks like you're back in the 90's. It's LOUD. The seats are comfortable at first but become uncomfortable over time. It's the most difficult car I've ever owned to get in and out of. It doesn't have a glove box. The trunk will hold my computer bag -- and that's all. The sun visors are pretty much a joke. The radio IS a joke.

However, the car is just a ball to drive. The brake pedal is hard and modulates beautifully. The acceleration is what I expected -- it really scoots and the engine just gets better up the Rev range. You just want to nail this thing all day long. It's addictive.

I feel NO turbo lag. The noise it makes sounds something like these older turbo rally cars when the waste gates let loose -- it sounds like someone wanted you to hear everything instead of trying to hide it. The steering is old school and something I haven't felt in years. You can feel the "lightness". The steering also is easier to move at low speeds than I thought and I like how it loads up in the corners. And, it gives you amazing confidence to corner HARD and power your way out.

What surprised me most was that the paint is better than any Ferrari I've owned. And, the TCT shifts similar to the F430 but without the bad stuff. It's probably the best auto clutch box I've driven with a lot more feel and emotion than the 458 DCT. It does not creep like an auto car or the McLaren 12c.

It's pure Alfa. Exciting, quirky, different, beautiful, imperfect. It is anything but boring. It has an actual personality. If you closed your eyes and rode in this thing, in two seconds you would know you're in a 4c.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

In a world where economics and government regulations make everything appear the same, Alfa has shown us there still is another way.

And thank heavens for that because we may never see anything like it again.

 

What are you talking about? The 156 was a huge success for Alfa Romeo... whether you liked the car or not.

 

Thanks, it was.

For a smart chap with experience I would have thought you would have caught on long ago but perhaps you really don't like AR and the 4C and choose to carry on the charade.

The 4C's 19/18 staggered configuration is really more for looks, for fans who seek an AR iconic look (5-hole rims) or for the modern North American city gentry who likely won't be exploring too many English country potholes or continental cobbles.

You shouldn't put 19/18s on the 4C if you want to fling it around nasties like the Ring - which is why I pointed out earlier that the car von Sauer drove wore 18/17s. It was for compliance and weight-saving. The smaller-rimmed wheels are faster. It's a shame AR don't offer the 5-hole design in 18/17 configuration. I am actually considering 18/17 for my car when I place my order. Mark, my salesman, who's a genuine car and driving nut, also laments AR not making the 17" version of the iconic 5-hole rim.

I'm glad you pointed out these nasties about the Elise/Exige. I didn't want to be rude because they are still neat cars even if you misrepresent them here.

You mentioned the 4C's CF tub, may I then mention the Exige's aluminum tub... and here it is for everyone to examine. And people complain about having to climb over the 4C's sill? Geez, from the looks of things, it's nothing compared to the Exige's tub.

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As for driving experience, I agree the Exige provides the more authentic track experience, including having horribly cramped seating. The Exige driver has to in fact constantly rub shoulders with his passenger. There's zero room between seats. And have a look at how narrow the Exige seats are.

And you bagger us about why the Exige is so light... it's barely a (proper) car for Pete's sake. Please drop the silly "the Exige is so light" argument.

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Another thing that gives your game away is the desperate manner in which you insist on comparing the 4C to the Exige. The Exige is a wonderful track and competition car but it isn't nearly as "practical" as the 4C is. Given that the 4C is already not recommended for DD duty, one can only imagine the misery experienced by those who try to use the Exige as a DD.

Your disingenuous arguments are also highlighted by your fear of discussing the Evora, which is clearly Lotus's effort to make the Exige into a more palatable DD, in order to broaden Lotus's appeal to people who can't or don't track their cars but still want a nimble pocket rocket - Lotus needs the additional sales volume to non-racers. I was correct in suggesting earlier that the 4C actually sits between the Exige and the Evora... and you know it. That you continue to evade the discussion of the Evora tells me that you do not want to discuss the 4C in an honest manner. That's perverse.

The 4C is in fact occupying a very neat position between a track car and a liveable passenger car, something that the Exige cannot claim to be and something that the Evora is still struggling to become.

Sorry, I think you're wrong about the 4C's sound and its "Alfaness".

You may not be familiar with how truly historical Alfas sounded like or maybe you simply have a bias against the 4C. The 4C actually sounds like the 159M, which is arguably the one Alfa that accounted for most of the mystique and glory in the brand. In case you don't know the 159M, it was the car that Fangio and many other Alfa drivers won their races in, back in the early 50s.

To help make my point clear I recorded 2 sound files; one using sound from a video footage of Fangio on a 159M test driving (in Monza?) and one using sound from a 4C video made by DRIVE.COM.AU - you can download the sound files from below. I've made .WAV and .MP4 versions in case you have a file format preference.

Yes, it is your preference but IMO, even though I love stick shifts I don't think they are suitable for truly fast-revving engines. You find yourself immediately shifting to 2nd as soon as you light the tires in such cars, making them tiresome if you are driving in heavy traffic. Sure they would be fine for track use... because you only go into 1st gear once on each outing; not so if you are running around town.

So very few people would want a stick shift for the 4C if they intend to drive them off the track, making the expensive development and inventory prospects of a manual transmission a really stupid idea for a company that is not flush with cash to throw away. As it is, the 4C does not have high margins, part of the reason why it will have a short production run.

That's another thing with the manner of your arguments. You can make all sorts of ludicrous claims because you don't consider the practical or financial implications of your suggestions. On the other hand, people who actual run companies and actually sell cars face very real and very practical considerations that you have no interest in mentioning, because you don't have to risk any skin on your claims.

Actually, up here in Ontario, CANADA the local Alfa dealer is doing an excellent job. I have nothing but praise for my salesman. Some configuration details are slow in coming but then they haven't begun orders for the spider yet so I'm not that worried about its details until I have to confirm my order.

Compare Alfa to Lotus who just laid off 325 people from its global staff of 1,125 last September. As of last September they laid off 4 people and only had 7 persons in its US headquarters.

Your idea of superior dynamics is only restricted to comparing the 4C against a track car which I already have proven to be disingenuous.

P.S. I've had another thought about the the "off center criticism of the 4c steering" you pointed to, it may be an attempt to dampen the tendency of manual steering to tramline the car when combined with aggressive tires (and bad road surfaces). Aggressive tire treads will follow road imperfections like crazy if the steering is (always) direct. AR knows the car is not necessarily targeted by experienced track or race drivers. Excessive tramlining will turn off a lot of owners.
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Ta! Actually, I messed up on the dessert and the quiche was a bit dry so you didn't miss too much from that perspective.

 

There's actually some interior storage in the 4C. The nature and quantity of storage compartment depends on which market the 4C is being sold into. In the NA market I've been shown a lockable bin which allows you to store a small phone, money and small valuables hidden from view.

Here's an excerpt from the owner's manual describing the interior storage.

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Apparently, other markets have this simpler, less capacious mesh pocket affair.

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Somehow, I feel another 600 line "response" coming.

 

Somehow, I feel another 600 line "response" coming.

 

I read that Von Sauer drove the Pirelli racing tires (Trofeo R's??) on the Ring but then Alfa claims these are only on the 19/18 rims?? Did they take the 18/17 rims and fitted different tires?

 

This thread is so bizarre.

But, as a multiple Cayman owner (including a 2015 Cayman S), I have to say I LOVE the 4C, its price point and quite honestly, celebrate its existence here in the US. I love the way it looks and the way it sounds (I have yet to drive one but I'm sure I'll enjoy that as well).

If any Bay Area 4C owners want to get together for a nice drive with some Porsche folk, I'm always up for it given the great roads we have. And no, it won't be to compare what's better on whatever car. Just drive and enjoy the f*n things.

Funny enough, I come back to this thread from time to time to read up on how owners are enjoying their 4Cs, yet somehow still end up encountering Boxerman pretty much calling my car worthless. Go figure.

 

Here is a fair and honest review of the 4c vs Elise.

Both have their points.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVv9RNTwTtg[/ame]

 

As much as I enjoy and share your enthousiasm for the 4C, the above is even for me a little too rose tinted ;-)

Nice clip of Marc Gene in Fangio's 159:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-hJ1DV2jCU

 

O, and forgot about that; the WWW tells me that the 4C's TcT gearbox add's about another 20kg's over a normal 6 speed manual making the weight diff. between a Euro spec 4C and an Elise even less significant.

F.i. add the extra weight of the aircon system and gearbox to the 2015 Elise Cup; 952 + 30 + 20= 1002 and the diff. is just 13 kg's; which is about the extra weight of the 18/19 wheel/tire combo of the 4C's over the light weights of the Elise Cup.

 

The Trofeo R's are only available for the 17/18 inch rims, if they were on Von Sauers car I don't know.

The 18/19 inch rims from the sport pack carry Pirelli PZero's, which, if I understood correct, can be had with 2 different tire treads ;the regular PZero's and those with "Alfa Romeo Racing" on the sidewall.

 

Ah ok. Thanks for the clarification. Here in The Netherlands the Trofeo R's are not available for 17" (only normal Trofeo's). Pity.
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Ofcourse they are.

And given the dates (2012) on that flyer you posted; the Trofeo R's in 17" only came available recently (2014) and in just 1 size.

 

No 600 liner here, because this has degenerated into a personal attack and clearly I have upset people which is not my intent. All I asked for or sought to provoke was an honest appraisal of the car, warts and all.

I appreciate you detailed response, becasue instead of name calling you have responded with facts and opinions about actual cars.

Since I grew up in an Ar and would love a giulia dont think I am anti AR. I just get aggravated with car companies stopping at the 3/4 mark, thye all do it, porche famously with the cayman, and their SUV's are imo a joke, comapred to say an x5.

I am readily happy to admit to the faults of other cars, a number of which I own, its not a big deal, all cars have faults, some are more relevant to different consumers than others.

So to the evora, its a lardy car over 3000lbs which I said earlier, and therfore pointless. If lotus really wants to comepete with with the evora, it needs a restyle, and to loose 300lbs while gainign 100Hp, well it just gained 50. The evora is supposed to compete with a 911, it will never have the build or durability so it has to be better dynamicaly and besides ride quality and maybe steerign feel its not.

The exige and elsie, yes you are right peoeple can barely fit. Nowehere in this thread have you heard me complain once about the build of the alfa, its interior dimensions. These complaints are from people who clearly dont understand what the car is about. The exige which is really a 20 yo design was only used for compasion becauise its heavier than the alfa, yet apprently has better dynamics, therefore the alfa could and should be better with finishing school.

Which birngs me to my point and only major point of criticicsm about the alfa. Its going to be coveted and bought by people who look to driving dynamics above all else, imo the car is viceral sharp and fun, but could and should go to finishign school. It wouldnt add a whole lot extra to the cost of the car if anything.

As to motor power, look at ducati or harley, they offer afetrmarket cams and exhausts which allow owners to significantly lift or broaden the powerband. Mini does this too, or used to. Imo alfa would have done well to offer an aftermarket shock ecu and cam option. After all this is sold as a true "performance" car. (I know there is a muffler delete.)

If I have offended peopel here I apologise. My intent is to garner a debate, to hear form owners, whats good and whats bad. The GBU if you will. I like the car and concept. Maybe my being more track focused its not for me, although I think with more development it could and should be both better on street and track.

The lotus was always a great drive, but very lacking eswhere. The comming of the 4c seemed like the holy grail. A stiffer car, one wth a bit more space and track. A turbo motor which meant alot more go. Origionaly they said less than 1000KGs.

Weight does grow and its still really light, certainly lighter than anything else on the market..Like vetets and other cars, it will probably be developed into the machine it could and should be.

Thats just my opnion, and I enjoy reasoned debate, its not personal.

Thanks for your detailed response.

 

Most importantly, who is this girl and is she hot? Lol. I felt the alfa was spiritual successor to elise from moment it was announced.

If i could speak on behalf of boxerman, i feel his complaint is that he wanted the 4c to be a $100k car called the 6c with a 400 hp maserati v6tt and other upgrades to suspension, etc. Not so sure how that car would be received in the marketplace but would be very different from 4c and fact that it doesnt exist (yet) doesnt take away from 4c that is here

My complaints about 4c have nothing to do w car and everything to do w company. Still do not know if fiat or maseati will carry alfa in my area! Really alfa, still negotiating that? The roll out was ridiculous with no one knowing when it would get here right up until it was here. And what is the price? Launch edts going for $90k w markups is crazy. At $55k, its great, at $90, no way. And how will all of this work out when need a repair, or a part? That is a major major concern

Its a super cool car and im glad the owners here are enjoying them

 

Here is my real world review:

I love it. Done.

I dont' care what any magazine, any internet expert or any other critic thinks.

I drove it on the Tail of the Dragon a couple of weeks ago. It did what I wanted. It made me smile and laugh at legal (mostly) speeds.

I got out and was sweaty and tired, like you should be after a good drive.

No car is perfect.
Alfa set out to build an incredible sports car experience at a reasonable price point (and even as a loss leader it seems) to advertise their brand. Seems like they hit their mark.

 

Some more weight geekery from the net:

The forged 18/19 wheels from the 4C's Sport pack are not as light as "forged" may suggest:

Advan Felgen - Reifen und Felgen - Alfa Romeo 4C Forum

Advan now has a wheel for the 4C; the Advan Racing RSII (available in both 18/19 and 17/18 inch.)

YOKOHAMA WHEEL | Brand | ADVAN Racing RS2 for European Cars

4C's forged Sport pack wheel weights:
7,0x18" ET33: 9,24 kg
8,5x19" ET49: 10,96 kg

Advan Racing RSII:

7.0x18" 6.9Kg
8.5 x19" 8.6Kg

Total unsprung mass reduction 9.4Kg. Take them in 17/18 inches, combined with the Trofeo R's and the weight saving will be even more.
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I expected the 4c to be a 300- 350hp turbo 4 like other companies manage, and it to have superlative dynamics like an elise, or similar lotus of the same weight. None of which should be impossible.

That would make it a car as a driving machine superior to pretty much any porche lotus etc in fact any car you can imagine for underr 100k let alone 75K. In fact superior to nay road machine I can think of.

The only difference between the spec I hanker for and what is delivered, is not so much cost as abbreviated development easily corrected by sendign the car to finishing school..

I am sure for the street on smooth roads where many owners live its more than adequate as is.

Looking forward to seeing he first few show up at trackdays this summer. I see sector 111 already has upgrades.