who will be first to surpass senna in race wins? Vettel or hamilton?

Lauda? A "tidy" driver he was, but I don't believe too many think of him as dominant. (Note: I'm a fan of Niki's, but I wouldn't rate him among the other names you mentioned).

I do place both Hamilton and Vettel in the same class as Alonso. I've never heard Hamilton's rapping skills but should we assume he would demolish the other names if they battled on the mic? I'm assuming you've heard his albums in London.

 

Boil it down to "can Vettel win 2 more in a Ferrari before Hamilton wins 7 this year? in a Mercedes?" and I'd have to put money on Hamilton.

 

While you seem to be growing up in your responses, you have to understand statistics don't always show the whole story. While Prost was indeed more calculated, had great stats, etc there are lots of other sides such as a dominant car, better team, etc. Through 75-84 as you say, you missed some of the best drivers. While statistically Lauda and piquet have the most wdc, you missed out on better and faster drivers who either died early or couldn't get the right equipment, such as Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villenueve. Many of their own competitors called them the fastest drivers of their time. Jacky ickx won lemans 6 times but couldn't get the right car in F1. His closest battle was when rindt died.

65-74 you missed jochen rindt, Jim Clark, Bruce McLaren, etc. (even though Jim Clark statistically had a great win percentage).

Voted by drivers- Formula 1's Greatest Drivers - AUTOSPORT.com - Jacky Ickx

Senna's own peers have even said he was the best. Stats aren't everything.

 

+1 on all of this. Some great drivers were lost between '68-'85 that could have altered much about F1 in that era.

 

I would rather say this is just a biased opinion using the statistics just as needed...

Or to say it easy: with Sennas dominance in qualy (and Hamiltons mistakes like yesterday or several times last year) I doubt that a Hamilton would win many poles against a Senna in his prime...Everybody racing against Senna could tell you that it was almost impossible to overtake him, if needed Senna also played "unfair"...So I have no doubt that a Senna in his prime would beat every single current driver in the same car.
Every era had its perfect driver: Senna in a time when pure race talent and self-confidence was needed and later Schumacher in a time when beside talent a lot of diligence and discipline was needed to get the most out of a car in endless testing (not really to the taste of Senna).
You are right that today´s drivers are fitter and more used to the modern needs of driving a F1 car but certainly talents like Senna, Prost or Schumacher would be able to do so as well if they lived in todays F1. Comparing drivers can be only done by their natural talent and in context of their opponents and not just statistics.
When looking at a qualy lap of Senna you will see how hard he had to work in the car and then you look about the things todays drivers are complaining all race long...

I am surprised that you list Vettel in there as you do not miss a chance to tell us how overrated and average he is because of one season....

It is just as arrogant as judging drivers only by statistics without looking at the era they were driving in...And you showed that more than once, may I just remind at your rediculous statements about Stewart or Clark....

But as I mentioned before

You just started this thread to praise your buddy...It is just so predictable

 

+1 I put far more credibility into the opinions of those that actually raced in Formula 1 over someone that just started following Formula 1 over last few years. I have a hard time disagreeing with the list provided by Autosport, but what do I know I have only been following the sport since 1974.

 

Senna is like Chuck Norris, ONLY Senna can beat Senna, even if Vettel/Hamilton have more race wins, by default, Senna still beats them.

 

Vettel.

 

My head says Hamilton. My heart says Vettel.

Go Seb

 

That is just plain wrong...Hamilton never sat in a "bad car"!!! Certainly the McLaren was not as dominant as the Mercedes is today but it was still a car capable of race wins just as Hamilton did.
Fact is (and this is what you forget in your statistics): Hamlilton was put into a top team from day one, he did not start his career in a Toleman (Senna), a uncompetitive Benetton (Schumacher) or Toro Rosso (Vettel). The fact that he won a race in every season is not just to his merit but also to the fact that he never sat in a "dog".

As mentioned earlier it is just plain stupid to compare Kimis performance last year with the one this year and make conclusions about Vettel/Alonso taking him as measurement...As also mentioned before no matter what Vettel does in the Ferrari (even if he wins) some will say Alonso "would have done better" although there will never be a proof for that. I on the other side think that the fact that he is not a tenth faster than Button in the same car takes away a lot of this "Alonso is always driving 11/10th of the car and makes the car look better than it is"...Alonso drives about as fast as the car is capable for, just as Hamilton, Vettel, Button and a few others, not more and not less. When you see that we had 2 Merc in front of two Ferrari and then 2 Williams one could imagine how big the impact of the driver is apart from a team-intern compariation

Who said that??? The Mercedes was much faster in qualy so Hamilton could controle the whole race from the front without being challenged at all...He was able to cruise in clean air and could safe his tyres to drive a fastest lap just before his stops whereas Vettel had to drive flat out to keep up with the Mercedes...You might have seen a different race but I did not see Ferrari having the same speed as the Mercedes, I just saw Hamilton driving the same speed as the Ferrari for most of the race, but almost a second quicker if needed. And in difference to you I do not take this down to Hamiltons geniosity but to a much quicker car...

 

Forget it. I tried to be reasonable again.

 

It is funny how you jump from one side to the other...You do not miss a single chance to diss Rosberg (cheatberg....) and tell us how average he is compared to others and then at the same time you think it is a heroic achievement by Hamilton to beat him...I doubt that Rosberg is the measure of things at the moment so the fact that Rosberg is not able to get everything out of the car driving in the dirty air of Hamilton does not mean that it is all down to Hamilton...Even a "weak" Rosberg is able to stay in front of Vettel and Kimi so I do not see at all where the two cars were even this weekend. And we all know that passing a car as fast as yours with todays aerodynamic is not easy so winning qualy is half way to victory and Mercedes is much much faster in that...You should take of your Hamilton coloured sunglasses and start being realistic...

 

You still have not understood anything I said...It was "down to the driver" between Hamilton and Rosberg who wins the race but it was down to the car who won (Hamilton or Vettel) just as it was last race the other way round...No more no less.

 

Have one on me

 

Hamilton would not even come in the 20 best list.....even as a british driver he is very far from drivers like Moss, Brooks, Clark, Stewart, Mansell.....rigth now he is not as good as Vettel, Kimi or Ricciardo.....as i said before, he's good, fast but not the last coke in the desert....except for Toil of course....

 

Depends on what your list is sorted by.

Normally they go by number of WDC titles, victories and poles.

So from the names above, he is just in line behind Stewart, whose titles he'll likely match this year. And I wouldn't be surprised if he'd win a 4th title during his career at which point, he'll be THE British F1 driver of all times and about #4 in the all time F1 driver list of all nations.

 

OMFG!!!

 

LOLOLO, but as you know Andreas, i don't give a **** about titles, 90% of the case they only indicate who was driving the best car....so for all i care he can win 20 titles, he will never come close to Jim Clark .....(whom not only had the best car, but was clearly the best driver of hnis time) or Stirling Moss....(whom one so many races in inferior cars)

 

So where do you all rate Button at now??

He bested Hamilton and now is doing better than Alonso, so far.

 

Hamilton, thanks to the car.